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SoonerTimes Home > SoonerTimes > OU Sports > Riley’s biggest problem....


Riley’s biggest problem....
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Manoewar
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 Posted: Sat Jan 4th, 2020 12:34 am

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.. is over achieving. Bob gave Licoln the key to a mansion but it was one that needed a lot of work and more than we could have possibly imagined.

The first two years he was handcuffed to two of the worst defenses in school history yet he still was able to somehow win enough to get into the playoffs. This years team was a 8-4 team at best heading into winter workouts. Yet he somehow manages to win enough to make it into the playoffs.

The truth is, he’s currently a victim of his own success. None of his teams have been elite but he’s done enough to put them in position to play with NC caliber teams. It’s going to take a couple of more years and although I’m a bit playoff weary, if we make it again next year I’ll be right here hoping and wishing for the best yet again.

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 Posted: Sat Jan 4th, 2020 12:42 am

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Here we go ..............The first of a million Opinions.......Let er Rip!!!!!

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 Posted: Sat Jan 4th, 2020 02:48 am

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Interesting opinion, that Riley over achieved , had an 8-4 team into the playoffs.....hmmmmm,mm......

Any other guy that had the fumbles and interceptions that Jalen had would have been benched .......

The team knew that....

Auburn started a Freshman QB that could not pass worth a darn.....

Several other freshman QBs started none of them as highly rated as Rattler....

Just some ideas I thought I would throw out there......

I think Riley will do great in the future, he is a smart guy, and will learn a great deal from this year,,,.

Last edited on Sat Jan 4th, 2020 03:16 am by Zgeo

Manoewar
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 Posted: Sun Jan 5th, 2020 11:02 am

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Zgeo wrote:
Interesting opinion, that Riley over achieved , had an 8-4 team into the playoffs.....hmmmmm,mm......

Any other guy that had the fumbles and interceptions that Jalen had would have been benched .......

The team knew that....

Auburn started a Freshman QB that could not pass worth a darn.....

Several other freshman QBs started none of them as highly rated as Rattler....

Just some ideas I thought I would throw out there...

I think Riley will do great in the future, he is a smart guy, and will learn a great deal from this year,,,.


In overachieving I’m referring to his whole body of work as a head coach. Riley knew that Spencer would not be here in the spring and that AK was not going to cut it, so he goes after Jalen with I believe the goal of not taking a step back. Yes on paper this should hVe been a 4 loss team and the thought of losing another playoff would be nonexistent. There was no more juice in the turnip in 2019. Putting Rattler in there without full command of the offense and not having a defense (Auburn) to lean in would have been self defeating and potentially disastrous for the future.

ClintA.Adams
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 Posted: Sun Jan 5th, 2020 12:58 pm

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It helped a lot that Big 12 QBs were way down than in prior years. Anyway, 12-2 in a rebuilding year is much better than the 2005 and 2009 rebuilding years.

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 Posted: Sun Jan 5th, 2020 03:39 pm

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Manoewar Yes on paper this should hVe been a 4 loss team and the thought of losing another playoff would be nonexistent.

I'm not sure how you can say that this team should have been a four loss team against this year's schedule. Never mind the fact that they were picked by most to win the conference and by some to be in the playoff.

None of the non conference teams were any good, and from a talent standpoint I'm not sure OU still didn't have the best talent in the league again.

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 Posted: Sun Jan 5th, 2020 03:40 pm

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Pneumonia Downs Nag wrote:
Manoewar Yes on paper this should hVe been a 4 loss team and the thought of losing another playoff would be nonexistent.

I'm not sure how you can say that this team should have been a four loss team against this year's schedule. Never mind the fact that they were picked by most to win the conference and by some to be in the playoff.

None of the non conference teams were any good, and from a talent standpoint I'm not sure OU still didn't have the best talent in the league again.

Zgeo
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 Posted: Sun Jan 5th, 2020 03:47 pm

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Manoewar wrote:
Zgeo wrote:
Interesting opinion, that Riley over achieved , had an 8-4 team into the playoffs.....hmmmmm,mm......

Any other guy that had the fumbles and interceptions that Jalen had would have been benched .......

The team knew that....

Auburn started a Freshman QB that could not pass worth a darn.....

Several other freshman QBs started none of them as highly rated as Rattler....

Just some ideas I thought I would throw out there...

I think Riley will do great in the future, he is a smart guy, and will learn a great deal from this year,,,.


In overachieving I’m referring to his whole body of work as a head coach. Riley knew that Spencer would not be here in the spring and that AK was not going to cut it, so he goes after Jalen with I believe the goal of not taking a step back. Yes on paper this should hVe been a 4 loss team and the thought of losing another playoff would be nonexistent. There was no more juice in the turnip in 2019. Putting Rattler in there without full command of the offense and not having a defense (Auburn) to lean in would have been self defeating and potentially disastrous for the future.



I don’t think you can claim overachieving as a body of work....he was handed the keys to a playoff team day one.......

As far as last season I get what you are saying but the one question that bugs me is that in the last spring game Schafer was clearly the best QB at both passing and moving the team down the field, combine that with using a poor passer and never trying the other QBs...and I don’t understand it....we were squeeking by mediocre teams...TCU had us on The ropes at the last game in Norman we almost lost to a non bowl team....looking back it is almost as if LR didn’t want to reflect poorly on JH by pulling him but the Heisman was over JB had it....so....

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 Posted: Sun Jan 5th, 2020 05:58 pm

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ClintA.Adams wrote:
It helped a lot that Big 12 QBs were way down than in prior years. Anyway, 12-2 in a rebuilding year is much better than the 2005 and 2009 rebuilding years.

Amen

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 Posted: Sun Jan 5th, 2020 06:33 pm

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I think it's better for Rattler to mature for a year learn the offense and develop and red-shirt than get thrown into the fire. My opinion. Who's to say we might have been a 12-2 team with Rattler... but I doubt it. True freshmen who have not been on campus that long make a lot of mistakes. Water under the bridge. We have Rattler for at least 3 more years. Enjoy.

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 Posted: Sun Jan 5th, 2020 11:18 pm

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Zgeo wrote:
the one question that bugs me is that in the last spring game Schafer was clearly the best QB at both passing and moving the team down the field, combine that with using a poor passer and never trying the other QBs...and I don’t understand it...

I've watched enough QB competitions at OU to understand that watching the spring game is a ĺot like watching preseason football in the NFL. It may look like football, but it's not really real.

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 Posted: Sun Jan 5th, 2020 11:56 pm

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IMO spring game tells you the situation with out fail

when I saw Kyler and Baker , in Spring game, when Baker was starting Kyler moved the team down the field better than Baker due to fact that if nothing was there Kyler took off for 15 yards, while Baker when nothing was there got 3 to 4 yards....turned out to be representative of the reality.....

Same was true of a QB I won’t mention that didn’t look good in Spring game but was reported great in practice...turned out he was not good , except for 1 game , at the very end.....

Go the opposite way and ask the question why would the best QB look like the worst QB in the spring game....

Triple Option
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 Posted: Mon Jan 6th, 2020 01:01 am

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Zgeo wrote:IMO spring game tells you the situation with out fail
I'm guessing that not a lot of people would share that opinion. I think gcruse7's analogy to the NFL preseason is probably a pretty good comparison.

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 Posted: Mon Jan 6th, 2020 01:58 am

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Triple Option wrote:
Zgeo wrote:IMO spring game tells you the situation with out fail
I'm guessing that not a lot of people would share that opinion. I think gcruse7's analogy to the NFL preseason is probably a pretty good comparison.


So far the spring game has been 100% accurate in showing the relative quality of the QBs..... IMO

Also 100% of the players that were called “great in practice” because they had to explain why they were starting have been bad in games....

Like I said...why would the best QB look like the worst QB in the spring game? Still waiting for an answer....l:rolleyes:

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 Posted: Mon Jan 6th, 2020 02:26 am

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I remember going to a spring game years back .. and this freshmen from PC North named Bradford was one of the qb's... he didn't look really any better than any of the other qb'.s in the spring game... the rest is history as they ... however he did NOT look worse ... just average.

Last edited on Mon Jan 6th, 2020 02:27 am by captnop

StatesEye
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 Posted: Mon Jan 6th, 2020 03:41 am

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I have to agree with gcruse7.....at least as far as QB's go. I specifically remember Kyler being somewhat underwhelming in the 2018 spring game. In fact, I thought Austin had the better outing that day.


I also remember that Bradford didn't have that great of spring game in 2007.

Finally, the best QB can look like the worst QB if he is not playing with optimal personnel on offense....which is usually the case for the spring game.

Last edited on Mon Jan 6th, 2020 03:42 am by StatesEye

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 Posted: Mon Jan 6th, 2020 04:02 am

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Rawls looked a LOT better in the spring game did than a creaky knee White did. White went on to win the Heisman and Rawls fell out of a pickup truck and into oblivion. Spring games are largely smoke and mirrors.

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 Posted: Mon Jan 6th, 2020 04:17 am

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So the spring game always shows the worst QB as best and vice versa......

You all are unbelievable.....:rolleyes:

Apparently the games during the season follow the same pattern....lol...

Last edited on Mon Jan 6th, 2020 04:18 am by Zgeo

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 Posted: Mon Jan 6th, 2020 04:31 am

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Zgeo wrote:So the spring game always shows the worst QB as best and vice versa...
Zgeo wrote:why would the best QB look like the worst QB in the spring game? Still waiting for an answer....l:rolleyes:
Because the goal of a spring game is not to win. It's a glorified practice. Sure, individual players are trying to win, but the coaches don't care if Red or White wins. They're more interested in things like installing schemes and evaluating personnel and keeping key players healthy. So you see vanilla on both offense and defense and hands off the QB, etc. And as far as comparing performances, it matters a lot who you're playing with and against, and whether they're first team or third team or whatever. It may be called the spring game, but it's not really a game.

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 Posted: Mon Jan 6th, 2020 01:50 pm

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So in a glorified practice one QB efficiently moves the team down the field exhibitiing a natural passing skill of leading recievers open and placing the ball accurately with rapid decisions a quick and high release and this QB is not as good as the QB that is inaccurate, throws behind receivers and can’t move the team down the field.....ok...new concept.....

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 Posted: Mon Jan 6th, 2020 01:54 pm

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Zgeo wrote:
So in a glorified practice one QB efficiently moves the team down the field exhibitiing a natural passing skill of leading recievers open and placing the ball accurately with rapid decisions a quick and high release and this QB is not as good as the QB that is inaccurate, throws behind receivers and can’t move the team down the field.....ok...new concept.....


So since Kansas St. beat OU this past season, does that mean that Kansas St. would beat OU 9 times out of 10? The spring game is a controlled environment and also just one single event. You just can't take much from it.

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 Posted: Mon Jan 6th, 2020 02:30 pm

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Zgeo wrote: So the spring game always shows the worst QB as best and vice versa......

You all are unbelievable.....:rolleyes:

Apparently the games during the season follow the same pattern....lol...I'm not sure how you got that from what I wrote. Let me clarify....

1. The "best" QB usually does not have the "best" offensive personnel at every key position on the unit he is directing in the spring game. This allows for the possibility that is described in #2. See #2.

2. Sometimes, the "best" QB directs the least effective offensive drive during the spring game. Hence, said QB has the "worst" performance of the QB's as far as fans are concerned.

You asked for an explanation for "why would the best QB look like the worst QB in the spring game?" I could have rolled my eyes and lol'ed at the question and called you "unbelievable". There has NEVER been a case when the worst performing QB in the spring game got the starting job. However, the two above statements offer a reasonable explanation for the question I assumed you are really trying to ask. Furthermore, I and others have offered our observations from previous spring game performances of QB's that were less than stellar or at least didn't clearly separate themselves from other QB's, yet went on the win the Heisman trophy.


If I'm still "unbelievable" with the above statements then I really don't know how else to make this point. I think the two points above make a lot more sense than fans (including you) knowing who the best QB is based on a few series in the spring game. These coaches have positions at the highest level of college football, and many have impeccable track records. They spend hours and hours with this young men in practice, the film room, weight room and observing other intangibles team members may contribute. The coaches also have to keep the future in mind, too. I believe all of the above places these coaches, in particular Riley, as the best evaluators as who is the "best" QB.

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 Posted: Mon Jan 6th, 2020 02:41 pm

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Objectivity..... Hurts clearly wasn't the "worst" QB in the spring game. Sourced from https://soonersports.com/news/2019/4/12/211799525.aspx


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 Posted: Mon Jan 6th, 2020 02:46 pm

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Another question.....what kind of defensive personnel was Hurts going against as compared to Schafer? This is an honest question.

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 Posted: Mon Jan 6th, 2020 03:03 pm

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StatesEye wrote:
Objectivity..... Hurts clearly wasn't the "worst" QB in the spring game. Sourced from https://soonersports.com/news/2019/4/12/211799525.aspx




Schafer clearly moved the team down the field the best of the QBs even you numbers show that... Mordecai has not looked effective in any game situation

As for the other question Hurts threw to the 1st team recievers, Schafer threw to the third team receivers, the defense varied for all of them as far as back ups and starters

Seems like now you all think the spring game is indicative of skill....

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 Posted: Mon Jan 6th, 2020 04:16 pm

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Sheesh, Zgeo, no offense, but it's like you're not hearing a word anyone else has posted. By your logic, Pledger should have been our starting RB all year. The coaches are with these guys every day, they know who has command of the offense, who knows how to recognize and react to a defense, how they make decisions, how they perform on a regular basis (not just for a drive or two), etc. I don't know anything about Schafer, but there have to be reasons why he's not even on scholarship, and why he hasn't transferred to play somewhere else.

It just seems reasonable to think that a coach, and especially one with Riley's track record, is going to have a better understanding of his QB room than any fan would have from just watching the spring game. OK, I'm done on this topic, we can just agree to disagree.

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 Posted: Mon Jan 6th, 2020 04:19 pm

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Zgeo wrote: StatesEye wrote:
Objectivity..... Hurts clearly wasn't the "worst" QB in the spring game. Sourced from https://soonersports.com/news/2019/4/12/211799525.aspx




Schafer clearly moved the team down the field the best of the QBs even you numbers show that... Mordecai has not looked effective in any game situation

As for the other question Hurts threw to the 1st team recievers, Schafer threw to the third team receivers, the defense varied for all of them as far as back ups and starters

Seems like now you all think the spring game is indicative of skill....No....the numbers don't clearly show that Schafer "moved the team down the field". They show that both Hurts and Schafer had the identical yards/attempt average and that Hurts accomplished this with double the number of passes. That, in fact, is better than Schafer.


Schafer had 2 TD's. That's good. I know that one of those TD's was a 48-yard TD completion to 5-star freshman Theo Wease. Wease was covered, and I use that term loosely, by Finn Corwin. Corwin is listed as freshman walk-on WR. Wease had beaten Corwin by 15 yards, at least, after completely turning him around on his first move from the LOS. Much of the defense was composed of these type of guys during Schafer's time in.

Taking this one play off of Schafer's numbers and his yards/attempt drops to 6.5 yards/attempt. This is less than half of Hurts' yards per attempt....again, while Hurts had twice the number of attempts. Hurts numbers are better....a lot better.  Furthermore, much of Shafer "moving the team down the field" were big rushing gains. You can see all of this on youtube. Shafer did throw a nice slant pass for a TD.

I did not read any statement on this thread indicating that the spring game does not "indicate skill level". They have stated that the spring game does not always "show" which QB is better from most fans' perspectives.

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 Posted: Mon Jan 6th, 2020 05:18 pm

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Triple Option wrote:
Sheesh, Zgeo, no offense, but it's like you're not hearing a word anyone else has posted. By your logic, Pledger should have been our starting RB all year. The coaches are with these guys every day, they know who has command of the offense, who knows how to recognize and react to a defense, how they make decisions, how they perform on a regular basis (not just for a drive or two), etc. I don't know anything about Schafer, but there have to be reasons why he's not even on scholarship, and why he hasn't transferred to play somewhere else.

It just seems reasonable to think that a coach, and especially one with Riley's track record, is going to have a better understanding of his QB room than any fan would have from just watching the spring game. OK, I'm done on this topic, we can just agree to disagree.


Sure let’s agree to disagree...

I have faith that LR will have a great passer on the field this season , and that we won’t be plagued by Turn Overs again... I expect the offense to be noticeably better this coming season .... without the turn overs by the offense the defense will be less stressed and better

I hear what you guys are saying and some of it is good , but I don’t discount the spring game results totally like other posters.....

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 Posted: Mon Jan 6th, 2020 05:34 pm

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StatesEye wrote:
Zgeo wrote: StatesEye wrote:
Objectivity..... Hurts clearly wasn't the "worst" QB in the spring game. Sourced from https://soonersports.com/news/2019/4/12/211799525.aspx




Schafer clearly moved the team down the field the best of the QBs even you numbers show that... Mordecai has not looked effective in any game situation

As for the other question Hurts threw to the 1st team recievers, Schafer threw to the third team receivers, the defense varied for all of them as far as back ups and starters

Seems like now you all think the spring game is indicative of skill....No....the numbers don't clearly show that Schafer "moved the team down the field". They show that both Hurts and Schafer had the identical yards/attempt average and that Hurts accomplished this with double the number of passes. That, in fact, is better than Schafer.


Schafer had 2 TD's. That's good. I know that one of those TD's was a 48-yard TD completion to 5-star freshman Theo Wease. Wease was covered, and I use that term loosely, by Finn Corwin. Corwin is listed as freshman walk-on WR. Wease had beaten Corwin by 15 yards, at least, after completely turning him around on his first move from the LOS. Much of the defense was composed of these type of guys during Schafer's time in.

Taking this one play off of Schafer's numbers and his yards/attempt drops to 6.5 yards/attempt. This is less than half of Hurts' yards per attempt....again, while Hurts had twice the number of attempts. Hurts numbers are better....a lot better.  Furthermore, much of Shafer "moving the team down the field" were big rushing gains. You can see all of this on youtube. Shafer did throw a nice slant pass for a TD.

I did not read any statement on this thread indicating that the spring game does not "indicate skill level". They have stated that the spring game does not always "show" which QB is better from most fans' perspectives.


The Spring game showed Schafer to be a natural... the Spring game and other games never showed Mordecai to be effective...Hurts was just ok in the spring game throwing to first team wr.....everyone including me assumed with more time with the team he would be better, never happened.....whatever the reasons for Hurts starting all the games and never letting another QB meaningful snaps is behind us ..... the only thing that happened was shaken trust in LR getting the best QB into the field during 2019 , but that actually strengthens my trust that he will get the best passer into the field in 2020 because we all saw the impact of a slightly less skilled passer on this team.... I think LR is looking for great passers based on Rattler and Morris being his two signees.....

Kyler and Baker came back when BS was HC ......

It will be very interesting to see the QBs perform in the Spring game

Also I hope the suspensions are overturned or at worse ably another 5 games, but that is a lot especially this year.....

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 Posted: Fri Jan 10th, 2020 10:15 am

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Zgeo wrote:
Manoewar wrote:
Zgeo wrote:
Interesting opinion, that Riley over achieved , had an 8-4 team into the playoffs.....hmmmmm,mm......

Any other guy that had the fumbles and interceptions that Jalen had would have been benched .......

The team knew that....

Auburn started a Freshman QB that could not pass worth a darn.....

Several other freshman QBs started none of them as highly rated as Rattler....

Just some ideas I thought I would throw out there...

I think Riley will do great in the future, he is a smart guy, and will learn a great deal from this year,,,.


In overachieving I’m referring to his whole body of work as a head coach. Riley knew that Spencer would not be here in the spring and that AK was not going to cut it, so he goes after Jalen with I believe the goal of not taking a step back. Yes on paper this should hVe been a 4 loss team and the thought of losing another playoff would be nonexistent. There was no more juice in the turnip in 2019. Putting Rattler in there without full command of the offense and not having a defense (Auburn) to lean in would have been self defeating and potentially disastrous for the future.



I don’t think you can claim overachieving as a body of work....he was handed the keys to a playoff team day one.......

As far as last season I get what you are saying but the one question that bugs me is that in the last spring game Schafer was clearly the best QB at both passing and moving the team down the field, combine that with using a poor passer and never trying the other QBs...and I don’t understand it....we were squeeking by mediocre teams...TCU had us on The ropes at the last game in Norman we almost lost to a non bowl team....looking back it is almost as if LR didn’t want to reflect poorly on JH by pulling him but the Heisman was over JB had it....so....


In my view he was handed a team with a NC offense (which he built) while being handcuffed to a downward trending dysfunctional defense,( DC who should have been let go when he came on board in 2015). Playoff caliber team to me means having a real chance to win. The last two offenses would have faired pretty well against LSU this year as well although we would have ultimately lost. I really cant look at the spring game as a good measure of who should have been the starting QB. I think Jalen served his purpose for this year and over all the season was a success. Texas will be real interesting with Sam coming back

Last edited on Fri Jan 10th, 2020 01:29 pm by Manoewar


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