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SoonerTimes Home > SoonerTimes > OU Sports > Recruiting’s Biggest Bait-and-Switch:


Recruiting’s Biggest Bait-and-Switch:
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47Straight
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 Posted: Wed Feb 6th, 2019 03:14 pm

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https://www.si.com/college-football/2019/02/05/uncommittable-offers-recruiting-national-signing-day?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=si-ncaafb&xid=socialflow_twitter_si

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Walt
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 Posted: Wed Feb 6th, 2019 04:08 pm

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How many offers a school makes doesn't seem to me to be a big problem. The example of the kid who got burned by LSU is a story that happens more often than we probably think.

A couple of years ago, OU had issued an offer to a Texas CB. I don't recall the name, his brother had been an OU scholarship player. The kid was an early commitment. Later in the cycle both the player and OU cooled off on each other. I think in this case OU recruited over him. As I recall, OU told him that they would honor his commitment, but that they thought he would be better off elsewhere.

This stuff happens and the bad thing is there are coaches that just blow some kids off.

I suspect that some of the offers are just to get their name out there. Most super recruits get offered by most all schools.

It would be financially impossible for any school to seriously visit and work 400 players. My guess it is somewhere in the 50 to 75 range that most schools focus on.

I think the authors just made a big thing out of nothing.

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 Posted: Wed Feb 6th, 2019 04:18 pm

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The solution is simple.  Require that all offers be written.  If accepted, the school must provide a four-year education, whether or not he is provided the opportunity to be a part of the team.  Once accepted, the recruit cannot pursue attend  another school until he has completed two years at the institution with which he first signed.

Both would now have a reason to be responsible about their offer.

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 Posted: Wed Feb 6th, 2019 04:38 pm

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sybarite wrote:
The solution is simple.  Require that all offers be written.  If accepted, the school must provide a four-year education, whether or not he is provided the opportunity to be a part of the team.  Once accepted, the recruit cannot pursue attend  another school until he has completed two years at the institution with which he first signed.

Both would now have a reason to be responsible about their offer.


How does this warrant another recruiting rule? We have been doing this for quite a few decades and other than a few isolated incidents where is the problem? Does anyone really care how many offers a school makes?

If, we are going to make some ridiculous rule to accomplish something that isn't a real problem.

If, we are going to write a rule for this then let's write a rule that prohibits a kid from committing to a school and then later changes his mind. Let's prohibit a player from transferring. Let's write a rule that prohibits a coach for leaving before the end of his contract term.

The NCAA is way to burdened with rules without more that cover a non-issue.

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 Posted: Wed Feb 6th, 2019 04:47 pm

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Walt, the db you mentioned above was Austin Dakoda's brother. He virtually disappeared after not signing with us. I googled him up to 6 months later to see where he ended up with no information about him on Google. I just can't remember his name. Maybe Salt City will help me out as he has a great memory.

Edit: I found this...

https://newsok.com/article/5508689/oklahoma-notebook-brother-of-sooner-defensive-back-dakota-austin-commits-to-ou

Last edited on Wed Feb 6th, 2019 04:58 pm by K2C Sooner

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 Posted: Wed Feb 6th, 2019 05:00 pm

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It was Jordon Austin. I don't know what happened to him either.

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 Posted: Wed Feb 6th, 2019 09:22 pm

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I'm sorry, but I think a university is ethically bound to honor a scholarship offer.  I consider that a verbal contract, and I think that rather than be able to deny it, it be written.  If that means that a school must pay for 300 scholarships that they offered but didn't really want to play football, live with it.

I also think that there is an obligation on the part of the recipient.  Once he accepts an offer, he must be prepared to honor it.

Extending 400 offers is absurd.

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 Posted: Wed Feb 6th, 2019 09:45 pm

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sybarite wrote:
I'm sorry, but I think a university is ethically bound to honor a scholarship offer.  I consider that a verbal contract, and I think that rather than be able to deny it, it be written.  If that means that a school must pay for 300 scholarships that they offered but didn't really want to play football, live with it.

I also think that there is an obligation on the part of the recipient.  Once he accepts an offer, he must be prepared to honor it.

Extending 400 offers is absurd.


Just for fun let's figure out how that would work in the real world.

Let's start with the idea that a school can actually sign 25 LOIs in any one year ... which I believe is the limit over four years.

So, since OU can only take 25 kids then how many can they really afford to offer?

How much is a scholarship worth? Scholarship football players get room, board, tuition books and the whole works. Just for fun lets say that the above costs roughly $50,000/year.

Next question is to come up with how many kids does OU realistically have to offer to get their 25 actual players who sign an LOI.

My guess is that OU likely gets a signed LOI for about ever 5 to 10 kids they offer. So, 25 signed LOIs would require offer about 125 to 250 kids. So, by your rule that would mean that OU would have to pay $50,000 for roughly 100 to 225 kids a year. Over four years that would work ouit to 400 to 1,000 kids. That works out to $20,000,000 to $50,000,000.

What is the fallout for such a rule as you suggest?

First, schools in small states where there are few 4 and 5* players. With your rule you would severely put these schools, such as Kansas STate at a serious disadvantage compared to a schools like USC. USC has more FBS players in their backyard than Oklahoma, Kansas and Nebraska have total.

Second, you force schools to not even look at likely 60% of the kids that they evaluate every year. You would take the recruiting experience for lots of kids out there.

And, all of this because someone thinks that a school offering 200 to 300 kids a year really does damage. The truth is that maybe once a year some kid gets screwed.

It is ridiculous.

The truth is that when most schools offer a kid a scholarship that offer is given with some strings attached. At each position group there are only 3 to 5 players. So, it is often a first come, first served.

What the devil is wrong with that? Absolutely, nothing.

Last edited on Wed Feb 6th, 2019 09:50 pm by Walt

sybarite
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 Posted: Wed Feb 6th, 2019 09:55 pm

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So.  The alternative, in order to protect the competitiveness of football, a parity of some sort, is to permit the university system to be unethical?

Very simple, if you don't want to spend $50 million, don't run around making 400 offers.

I once saw a recruiter's story which indicated that they only looked at realistically about seventy-five kids per year. So, why offer 400?

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 Posted: Wed Feb 6th, 2019 10:09 pm

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sybarite wrote:
So.  The alternative, in order to protect the competitiveness of football, a parity of some sort, is to permit the university system to be unethical?

Very simple, if you don't want to spend $50 million, don't run around making 400 offers.

I once saw a recruiter's story which indicated that they only looked at realistically about seventy-five kids per year. So, why offer 400?


Really, exactly what is so evil about a coach offering a scholarship to some kid?

I get it that these incidents where a kid gets screwed by some school/coach is unethical. I do think and believe that when a coach offers a kid a scholarship and he commits to them then the coach and school have to honor that scholarship.

Doing a written offer isn't a big deal ... for sure not much of a burden on the school/coaches.

Here is the deal. Bowling Green will offer lots of kids with the hope that they will get a great player every so often. If, they are financially punished for making an offer they likely won't ever take the risk.

I just think it would be punishing the kids more than anything else.

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 Posted: Wed Feb 6th, 2019 10:33 pm

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The big deal occurs if the kid thinks he has an offer and turns down other opportunities.  At the very least, the school should honor the offer with a scholarship.  Even with that, I would condemn a coach who didn't tell a kid that they had recruited over him until too late for him to deal with other opportunities.

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 Posted: Wed Feb 6th, 2019 10:49 pm

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Because no one knows where kids will go until the do commit, you can't just make 25 offers and only get the 11 that accept.
I think most coaches would make offers and tell kids, we are only taking 4 at your position - the first 4 to commit will be accepted and all other offers for (X position) are then withdrawn.
Maybe not exactly like that, but close.

Maybe even if the top 5 star in the country has an offer but is not committed, the coach would tell a recruit, we have accepted 3 already. If Joe Five Star doesn't accept our offer, the scholarship is yours.

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 Posted: Wed Feb 6th, 2019 11:25 pm

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sybarite wrote:
The big deal occurs if the kid thinks he has an offer and turns down other opportunities.  At the very least, the school should honor the offer with a scholarship.  Even with that, I would condemn a coach who didn't tell a kid that they had recruited over him until too late for him to deal with other opportunities.


Syb, your heart is in the right place. :P However, an offer is just that. It is like selling a used car. Someone makes you an offer of $5,067.39 for your car. It isn't a deal until the guy "commits" to you that he will give you the $5,067.39 for your car.

These kids know up front what the rules are. These kids are shopping around trying to find the school that they like. In that process they visit with the coaches and look around the campus. The coach makes an offer and the deal isn't consummated until the kid commits.

It is just that simple. There aren't many of these kids that get screwed. You put a bunch of coaches in a room and charge them with fixing something that isn't broke and they will sure as the devil break it!:shock:

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 Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2019 12:40 am

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An offer.  An acceptance.  Done deal.

I have indicated that the school and the prospect would be punished for breaking the deal..  Reality.

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 Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2019 02:53 am

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sybarite wrote:
An offer.  An acceptance.  Done deal.

I have indicated that the school and the prospect would be punished for breaking the deal..  Reality.


:P You need to loosen up a little. You really want to punish a 17 year old kid who is trying to get through the recruiting process with the right decision for him?

Nah, you don't really want to do that. :lol:

I really believe that the Danielson Ike kid had left the impression with the OU coaches that he was going to be a Sooner. Also, based on that impression they backed off of the other OT they were recruiting. What happened was that OU lost Ike to SMU and the other OT to tOhio State.

And, with the new transfer rules we have kids who sign an LOI on one day and then on the next decide they want to transfer to another school.

It is pretty brutal, but it is what it is! :)

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 Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2019 03:02 am

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:-||

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 Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2019 03:38 am

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sybarite wrote:
An offer.  An acceptance.  Done deal.

I have indicated that the school and the prospect would be punished for breaking the deal..  Reality.


Your above comments made it sound like for the university, it was an offer. Done deal. But that's not how the business world works, and a scholarship offer is a lot like a business transaction.

The reality is that my company receives many RFQ's (request for quotes). The company that sends these out doesn't just send it to us - they send it to several vendors.

Then we send a quote for how we can fulfill the work, at a given price and to deliver on a given schedule. Just because we have offered to do the work doesn't mean that the company is obligated to do business with us.

And here's the part that is probably the most similar to recruiting. Even though we have offered to do the work for a given price/schedule, if that company selects us and sends us a purchase order, we are not obligated to do the work until we sign a contract. We can decide after we've sent in the quote that we no longer have time to do it or that we just prefer other business options.

In recruiting, the contract is the signed scholarship offer. Everything before that is just a quote and a purchase order.

Now this analogy obviously breaks down is some aspects. If I was a coach, I'd honor a scholarship offer to a player who has accepted that offer, unless they have violated their end of the bargain (not making grades, issues that would get him suspended if he was actually on the team, etc.)

But to say that I can't offer 5 QB's with the hopes of landing one is just as foolish as saying a company can't send out 5 RFQ's with the hopes that they can find one vendor who is qualified and willing to do the work.

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 Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2019 04:09 am

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Great thread....(y)

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 Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2019 04:11 am

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You might have had a lot of invalid deals.  Fact, if you make an offer, and that offer is accepted, it is a deal.  The term is fiduciary.

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 Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2019 04:26 am

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sybarite wrote:
You might have had a lot of invalid deals.  Fact, if you make an offer, and that offer is accepted, it is a deal.  The term is fiduciary.


The fact of the matter is that many times when we are awarded a purchase order we can't start on the work for a couple of weeks until the two company's lawyers can agree on the terms and conditions of the contract. So both companies acknowledge that it is the signed contract and not the offer to do the work that counts!

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 Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2019 05:02 am

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Your companies agree.   Convenient.  That requires a relationship.

I was in financial services, often dealing with legal contracts in which I had a fiduciary responsibility.  It was illegal for me to make any claims that consisted of a promise or a possibility.  I often had a couple of sets of lawyers.

But, I expect a university to operate in a manner that is above reproach.  It is a teaching institution.  I was forced to act in such a manner because of a fiduciary position, the violations of which can result in termination or even prison.  I expect a university to accept that as standard.

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 Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2019 05:18 am

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A couple may get engaged, buy rings, set a date, and send out invitations, but they ain't married until I do becomes I did. Now, there may be appropriate and inappropriate ways to treat your fiancée, but an engagement is not a marriage.

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 Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2019 12:04 pm

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sybarite wrote:
Your companies agree.   Convenient.  That requires a relationship.

I was in financial services, often dealing with legal contracts in which I had a fiduciary responsibility.  It was illegal for me to make any claims that consisted of a promise or a possibility.  I often had a couple of sets of lawyers.

But, I expect a university to operate in a manner that is above reproach.  It is a teaching institution.  I was forced to act in such a manner because of a fiduciary position, the violations of which can result in termination or even prison.  I expect a university to accept that as standard.


I've had my say on this issue a couple of times and was going to let this one go. :P However, you keep coming up with examples that have "ZERO" connection to FBS football recruiting.

The concept of a "fiduciary" responsibility isn't remotely relevant to coaches making an "OFFER" to a prospective recruit.

Fiduciary is legal obligation of one party to act in the best interest of another. The obligated party is typically a fiduciary, that is, someone entrusted with the care of money or property. Also called fiduciary obligation.

That "fiduciary" responsibility doesn't come into effect until a contract is signed or an individual purchases shares of stock or in the case of a business contract. It is the obligation of an individual or company to protect the financial interest of a separate person or entity.

In the recruiting world, when a kid signs an LOI does the school have an obligation to provide the scholarship.

To do as you suggest is simply unworkable in many ways.

:lol:

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 Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2019 12:15 pm

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Walt wrote:
sybarite wrote:
Your companies agree.   Convenient.  That requires a relationship.

I was in financial services, often dealing with legal contracts in which I had a fiduciary responsibility.  It was illegal for me to make any claims that consisted of a promise or a possibility.  I often had a couple of sets of lawyers.

But, I expect a university to operate in a manner that is above reproach.  It is a teaching institution.  I was forced to act in such a manner because of a fiduciary position, the violations of which can result in termination or even prison.  I expect a university to accept that as standard.


I've had my say on this issue a couple of times and was going to let this one go. :P However, you keep coming up with examples that have "ZERO" connection to FBS football recruiting.

The concept of a "fiduciary" responsibility isn't remotely relevant to coaches making an "OFFER" to a prospective recruit.

Fiduciary is legal obligation of one party to act in the best interest of another. The obligated party is typically a fiduciary, that is, someone entrusted with the care of money or property. Also called fiduciary obligation.

That "fiduciary" responsibility doesn't come into effect until a contract is signed or an individual purchases shares of stock or in the case of a business contract. It is the obligation of an individual or company to protect the financial interest of a separate person or entity.

In the recruiting world, when a kid signs an LOI does the school have an obligation to provide the scholarship.

To do as you suggest is simply unworkable in many ways.

:lol:


Sybarite, please read/watch this commitment video and tell us why KSU would owe this kid a scholarship.

This is a kid at Broken Arrow, Oklahoma who was committed to play football and KSU. At his ceremony this kid goes to a lot of trouble to show his lack of common decency to jilt KSU as he signs with KU. Even his parents are in on the deal. It is pretty sad.

This is what coaches have to put up with on the recruitment of these kids. Read it. Watch it. Then come back and preach some more about KSU's fiduciary responsibility to this kid. :P

https://247sports.com/college/oklahoma/Article/Gavin-Potter-video-flips-from-Kansas-State-to-KU-football-with-sweatshirt-body-paint-128802677/

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 Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2019 07:02 pm

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1)  I wasn't the one who introduced business practices.  But, I'm sorry, the ethics of a fiduciary do apply to the university.

2)  The kid isn't the one who is responsible as a teacher or ethical guide.

3)  Unworkable?  It is NOT a responsibility of a university to maintain a football program.  There are a lot of "unworkable" issues that may well terminate the football industry as we now know it.  Too bad?  Maybe.

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 Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2019 07:36 pm

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sybarite wrote:
1)  I wasn't the one who introduced business practices.  But, I'm sorry, the ethics of a fiduciary do apply to the university.

2)  The kid isn't the one who is responsible as a teacher or ethical guide.

3)  Unworkable?  It is NOT a responsibility of a university to maintain a football program.  There are a lot of "unworkable" issues that may well terminate the football industry as we now know it.  Too bad?  Maybe.

+1

Relationship of a university to a student = in loco parentis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_loco_parentis
The term in loco parentis, Latin for "in the place of a parent"[1] refers to the legal responsibility of a person or organization to take on some of the functions and responsibilities of a parent. Originally derived from English common law, it is applied in two separate areas of the law.
First, it allows institutions such as colleges and schools to act in the best interests of the students as they see fit, although not allowing what would be considered violations of the students' civil liberties. ...

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 Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2019 07:44 pm

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sybarite wrote:
1)  I wasn't the one who introduced business practices.  But, I'm sorry, the ethics of a fiduciary do apply to the university.

2)  The kid isn't the one who is responsible as a teacher or ethical guide.

3)  Unworkable?  It is NOT a responsibility of a university to maintain a football program.  There are a lot of "unworkable" issues that may well terminate the football industry as we now know it.  Too bad?  Maybe.


So you want to do away with the Women's basketball, softball, soccer, track and field, gymnastics, golf etc?

I'm absolutely positive that the coaches of those teams offer more scholarships than they can take.

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 Posted: Thu Feb 7th, 2019 11:59 pm

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The function of a university has nothing to do with sport..  It is interesting that the universities with the largest endowments often have no sport or are not as involved as others: Harvard, Yale, or for that matter, Heidelberg, the Sorbonne, Oxford, Cambridge, etc.


I think it is the first responsibility of a university to act and teach information and ethics,, not win sports events.  It is curious that we developed huge sports programs around universities, as though there were some inherent connection.  In one sense, I wish that there had never been a NCAA.  The idea of something necessary only to prevent a guy from playing for Harvard one Saturday and Yale the next and have that connected to the university is bizarre.  You just blessed what had been a group of kids with some paid ringers into something sacrosanct.   It would cost a lot less to let it go back to this dorm vs that dorm with everyone going back to class.

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 Posted: Fri Feb 8th, 2019 01:13 am

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sybarite wrote:
I think it is the first responsibility of a university to act and teach information and ethics

We probably agree on the first part: I think the university should educate, that is teach the information that is relevant to a specified degree.

As far as the second, I've got two kids currently in university life (one grad and one undergrad). The vast majority of universities, including the ones my daughters have attended are so much in a bubble, they are not qualified to lecture on morality and ethics, though it doesn't seem to stop them. The statements that get made in class make my daughters sad that (1) people actually believe such nonsense and (2) that said people are the ones actually given the responsibility to teach the next generation. I would get more detailed, but I respect (and appreciate) the "no politics" rules of this board.

Last edited on Fri Feb 8th, 2019 01:13 am by gcruse7

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 Posted: Fri Feb 8th, 2019 02:01 am

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gcruse7 wrote:
sybarite wrote:
I think it is the first responsibility of a university to act and teach information and ethics

We probably agree on the first part: I think the university should educate, that is teach the information that is relevant to a specified degree.

As far as the second, I've got two kids currently in university life (one grad and one undergrad). The vast majority of universities, including the ones my daughters have attended are so much in a bubble, they are not qualified to lecture on morality and ethics, though it doesn't seem to stop them. The statements that get made in class make my daughters sad that (1) people actually believe such nonsense and (2) that said people are the ones actually given the responsibility to teach the next generation. I would get more detailed, but I respect (and appreciate) the "no politics" rules of this board.


I have always been an education first supporter. We build these educational institutions for the purpose of education and research.

If, I had my way we would go back to the pure idea of "student athletes". However, that ship has left the pier. We are now in a situation where the Athletic Departments are for the purpose of managing the sports.

In fact, OU over the past 20 years has been turning over 5 to 8 million dollars a year.

We can argue the idea of "student athletes" till the cows come home and it won't change anything. So, Mr Gcruse7, you did the right thing and didn't go any further.

And, that is where this discussion ends.

Now if we want to continue the idea of Universities paying kids who OU sports programs made a scholarship to any kid they "offer".

Following the lead of Billy Tubbs no matter how bad an idea that is we can debate it some more. :(


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