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Patchwork defense limited Sooners this season
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SD-OU
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 Posted: Mon Nov 28th, 2016 11:02 pm

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K2C Sooner wrote: "When I refered to not being able to recruit the top defenders, I was talking about D Line recruits. Gallimore and Overton were not 5 star recruits".

But they were 4 stars. 5 star defensive tackles don't get handed out very often. I think I read about 5 or 6 per year on the average. I think Lampkin was a 4 star also. (I tried to look up a link for proof of my post, but got tired) I did confirm Gallimore and Overton were 4 stars according too Rivals.
Lampkin was a 3 star.

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 Posted: Mon Nov 28th, 2016 11:09 pm

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SD-OU wrote:
K2C Sooner wrote: "When I refered to not being able to recruit the top defenders, I was talking about D Line recruits. Gallimore and Overton were not 5 star recruits".

But they were 4 stars. 5 star defensive tackles don't get handed out very often. I think I read about 5 or 6 per year on the average. I think Lampkin was a 4 star also. (I tried to look up a link for proof of my post, but got tired) I did confirm Gallimore and Overton were 4 stars according too Rivals.
Lampkin was a 3 star.


Looks like he was either a 3 star or 4 star, according to the source.

http://www.soonersports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=31000&ATCLID=210294034

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 Posted: Mon Nov 28th, 2016 11:40 pm

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K2C Sooner wrote:
SD-OU wrote:
K2C Sooner wrote: "When I refered to not being able to recruit the top defenders, I was talking about D Line recruits. Gallimore and Overton were not 5 star recruits".

But they were 4 stars. 5 star defensive tackles don't get handed out very often. I think I read about 5 or 6 per year on the average. I think Lampkin was a 4 star also. (I tried to look up a link for proof of my post, but got tired) I did confirm Gallimore and Overton were 4 stars according too Rivals.
Lampkin was a 3 star.


Looks like he was either a 3 star or 4 star, according to the source.

http://www.soonersports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=31000&ATCLID=210294034



I checked 247 directly and it shows him as a 3 atar. Regardless, I think there is a good chance he could perform like a 4 star so to speak based on his athleticism.

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 Posted: Tue Nov 29th, 2016 12:30 am

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My biggest problem with is if Bob and Mike know they don't have much of a defensive line why do they only bring three of them many times. Go back and look at games when we had the opponent 3rd and long . I'm guessing when the guys running the chains saw Mike sending three they prepared to move on down the field to where the new first down was going to be.:lol::lol:

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 Posted: Tue Nov 29th, 2016 12:53 am

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The bio pages at soonersports.com use Rivals, ESPN, Scout and 247 sports, so the number next to each player is an average of the four.

Fr. Mark Jackson - 4 star

Fr. Amani Bledsoe - 4 star

RFr. Gabriel Campbell - 3.5 star

RFr. Kenneth Mann - 3.75 star

RFr. Neville Gallimore - 4 stars

RFr. Du'Vonta Lampkin - 3.25 stars

So. Marquis Overton - 4 stars

RJr. D. J. Ward - 4 stars

RJr. Matt Romar - 3 stars

Sr. Austin Roberts - 2.5 stars (JUCO)

RSr. Jordan Wade - 4 stars


I don't think that there is a lack of talent.  Losing Walker and Dimon was bad, but Dimon didn't leave willingly, only Walker is a sorehead. 

Soonersquad17 includes Addison Gumbs and Isaiah Thomas, both listed as 4 star recruits by 247sports. 


The more I look at this stuff the more I think that this is gonna be a pretty good defense next year. 



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 Posted: Tue Nov 29th, 2016 04:37 am

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Cemetery Guy wrote: Soonersquad17 includes Addison Gumbs and Isaiah Thomas, both listed as 4 star recruits by 247sports.
You forgot 4 star 6-4 222 lb Levi Draper who will enroll at midterm.

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 Posted: Tue Nov 29th, 2016 06:46 pm

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Triple Option wrote:
So, let me see if I’ve got this straight:

The defensive coaches stink because they have all these talented 4-star guys and still aren’t good. However, the defensive coaches also stink because they can’t recruit talented guys. :big confused:

Talented guys won’t come to OU because of the coaches (so I guess we don’t who recruited SS17 to OU, maybe some kind and generous coaches from the SEC who were all full-up on 4-stars).

And oh, by the way, 550 yards a game (3rd) and 45+ points a game (tie for first) just isn’t good enough, so the offensive coaches stink too.

Geez-louise, if some of you guys were Alabama fans, you’d complain that the offense was too boring and how Saban needs to join the 21st century. Or that the cheerleaders weren’t pretty enough.




You tell me...

Bob Stoops era-
1999-2015 we have 10 total All-American selections across the LOS , ( OL/DL). Only 1, ( Ikard-C), has been selected in the last 6 seasons, ( not counting 2016). So that's 9 in the first 11 seasons and 1 in the last 6. I'd say that's a major down trend.

We had 5 DL AA's in an 8 year period and 5 OL AA's in a 7 year period during that span prior to 2010. Since then, we have 1 AA lineman TOTAL... in 6 years. On both sides of the LOS. 1.

We have had 7 AA linebackers in the Stoops era. Only 1 in the last 8 seasons ( not counting 2016), ( Striker '15). So that's 6 in the first 11 seasons and 1 in the last 8, possibly 9 seasons.

Here's a list of Linemen All-Americans since 2010 at OU and the current top 3 programs in CF...

OU: 1- OL, 0- DL
Alabama: 7- OL, 1- DL
Ohio St: 3- OL, 5- DL
Clemson: 1- OL, 6- DL

Since Mike Stoops took over:

Defensive AA's ( all positions):

OU: 2
Al: 8
OSU: 8
CU: 9


Recruiting rankings courtesy of "Rivals" ( couldn't find any earlier than 2003):

2003- OU- #4
Al- #52
OSU- #44
CU- #70


2016- OU- #16
Al- #1
OSU- #3
CU- #6


You tell me.

Last edited on Tue Nov 29th, 2016 06:48 pm by palmettosooner

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 Posted: Wed Nov 30th, 2016 12:37 am

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palmettosooner wrote:
Triple Option wrote:
So, let me see if I’ve got this straight:

The defensive coaches stink because they have all these talented 4-star guys and still aren’t good. However, the defensive coaches also stink because they can’t recruit talented guys. :big confused:

Talented guys won’t come to OU because of the coaches (so I guess we don’t who recruited SS17 to OU, maybe some kind and generous coaches from the SEC who were all full-up on 4-stars).

And oh, by the way, 550 yards a game (3rd) and 45+ points a game (tie for first) just isn’t good enough, so the offensive coaches stink too.

Geez-louise, if some of you guys were Alabama fans, you’d complain that the offense was too boring and how Saban needs to join the 21st century. Or that the cheerleaders weren’t pretty enough.




You tell me...

Bob Stoops era-
1999-2015 we have 10 total All-American selections across the LOS , ( OL/DL). Only 1, ( Ikard-C), has been selected in the last 6 seasons, ( not counting 2016). So that's 9 in the first 11 seasons and 1 in the last 6. I'd say that's a major down trend.

We had 5 DL AA's in an 8 year period and 5 OL AA's in a 7 year period during that span prior to 2010. Since then, we have 1 AA lineman TOTAL... in 6 years. On both sides of the LOS. 1.

We have had 7 AA linebackers in the Stoops era. Only 1 in the last 8 seasons ( not counting 2016), ( Striker '15). So that's 6 in the first 11 seasons and 1 in the last 8, possibly 9 seasons.

Here's a list of Linemen All-Americans since 2010 at OU and the current top 3 programs in CF...

OU: 1- OL, 0- DL
Alabama: 7- OL, 1- DL
Ohio St: 3- OL, 5- DL
Clemson: 1- OL, 6- DL

Since Mike Stoops took over:

Defensive AA's ( all positions):

OU: 2
Al: 8
OSU: 8
CU: 9


Recruiting rankings courtesy of "Rivals" ( couldn't find any earlier than 2003):

2003- OU- #4
Al- #52
OSU- #44
CU- #70


2016- OU- #16
Al- #1
OSU- #3
CU- #6


You tell me.


I predict crickets.:lol:

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 Posted: Wed Nov 30th, 2016 01:57 am

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palmettosooner wrote: Triple Option wrote:
So, let me see if I’ve got this straight:

The defensive coaches stink because they have all these talented 4-star guys and still aren’t good. However, the defensive coaches also stink because they can’t recruit talented guys. :big confused:

Talented guys won’t come to OU because of the coaches (so I guess we don’t who recruited SS17 to OU, maybe some kind and generous coaches from the SEC who were all full-up on 4-stars).

And oh, by the way, 550 yards a game (3rd) and 45+ points a game (tie for first) just isn’t good enough, so the offensive coaches stink too.

Geez-louise, if some of you guys were Alabama fans, you’d complain that the offense was too boring and how Saban needs to join the 21st century. Or that the cheerleaders weren’t pretty enough.




You tell me...

Bob Stoops era-
1999-2015 we have 10 total All-American selections across the LOS , ( OL/DL). Only 1, ( Ikard-C), has been selected in the last 6 seasons, ( not counting 2016). So that's 9 in the first 11 seasons and 1 in the last 6. I'd say that's a major down trend.

We had 5 DL AA's in an 8 year period and 5 OL AA's in a 7 year period during that span prior to 2010. Since then, we have 1 AA lineman TOTAL... in 6 years. On both sides of the LOS. 1.

We have had 7 AA linebackers in the Stoops era. Only 1 in the last 8 seasons ( not counting 2016), ( Striker '15). So that's 6 in the first 11 seasons and 1 in the last 8, possibly 9 seasons.

Here's a list of Linemen All-Americans since 2010 at OU and the current top 3 programs in CF...

OU: 1- OL, 0- DL
Alabama: 7- OL, 1- DL
Ohio St: 3- OL, 5- DL
Clemson: 1- OL, 6- DL

Since Mike Stoops took over:

Defensive AA's ( all positions):

OU: 2
Al: 8
OSU: 8
CU: 9


Recruiting rankings courtesy of "Rivals" ( couldn't find any earlier than 2003):

2003- OU- #4
Al- #52
OSU- #44
CU- #70


2016- OU- #16
Al- #1
OSU- #3
CU- #6


You tell me.

I will give you my thoughts on this issue, but I don't want any blow back from anyone.  The standard answer that many will give is to lay it entirely on the coaches.   In the broad sense, I know great teams are directly related to two things: great coaching and great recruiting.  It takes both. 

Going back to Wilkinson's days OU's historically recruiting base was Oklahoma and Texas.  Bud signed up for the Navy during WWII and coached football under Don Faurot.  At the end of the war he came to OU under Jim Tatum.  Tatum coached at OU for one year and Bud replaced him as OU's head coach at the ripe old age of 31.  Bud and Tatum started out recruiting a lot of those kids who were just returning home from the war.  He had coached many of them and brought them to OU.

Bud's recruiting was roughly half from Oklahoma and the other half from Texas.  I started keeping track of OU's recruiting back in the early 50s.  OU, during Buds years and continuing up through much of Switzer's years remained mostly Oklahoma and Texas. Bud broke the color barrier with Prentice Gautt in 1956.   As we all know, Barry Switzer was a master recruiter and just blew the color barrier away during his years.  Between Bud and Barry they won a ton of conference championships and six national championships based on mostly Oklahoma and Texas talent.  Barry also began to recruit from a broader area getting kids from Arkansas, Missouri, Kansas and some kids from Florida and California.

About the time Barry took over at OU the NCAA [in 1973] started the scholarship limitations at 105 kids, I think.  Bud, sometimes brought in as many as 145 or so.  Bud, took a lot of kids just to keep his competitors from getting them.  In 1992, the NCAA reduced the 105 down to 85 with no more than 25 a year.

Between Barry and Bob some interesting things began to happen in Oklahoma, especially the Oklahoma City Metro area.   Both Bud and Barry recruited heavily in Oklahoma.  By the time Bob was hired in December of 1998 the numbers of Division 1A football prospects had dwindled down.  I think that happened for a couple of reasons.  First, the numbers of prospects from the OKC metro area dropped of dramatically.  Also, the same thing occurred from some of the former OU recruiting hot beds in the rural areas of the state dried up.  No longer did places like Ada, Muskogee, McAlister, Norman, Edmond, Enid, Elk City, Weatherford and on and on produce players like they did, especially in Buds era.

My opinion is that it was "money" that was the culprit.  I know for a fact that is a major reason for the OKC Metro area dropping off.  Also, between Bud and Barry the S&C programs began to proliferate in the college game.

Prior to 1984, the NCAA set limits on the number of times in a season that any team could have their games televised.  In 1984, OU filed a federal lawsuit against the NCAA over who owned the TV rights, the school or the NCAA.  Georgia joined OU in that suit.  OU and Georgia won.  And, now we have round the clock college football games.  This started the money grab to where we are today with ESPiN and all the money funneled into the college game.

Another factor is the growth in the population of the US.  In 1950 the US population was 152 million.  Today it is about 325.  However, the number of Division 1A [now FBS] teams is roughly the same at about 124.  So, we have double the population with most of the population in bigger cities and towns with way more money for high school football facilities and as good of S&C programs as some FBS schools and with some stadiums in the 40,000 plus range.

Another factor is the NFL taking Juniors in their draft.  Bud kept his players until their eligibility ran out.  Same with Barry, for the most part.  That is not the case with today's coaches as they not only lose their seniors, they also lose their best Juniors to the NFL draft.

Also, in the last 12 to 15 years have witnessed the restructuring [conference realignment] of the old traditional football conferences.  And, with that the growth of the money in the games and on and on.

Bud, had an advantage over much of college football when he first arrived at OU.  George Cross was OU's President who hired Bud.  He often said: "I would like to build a University of which the football team could be proud."  Bud Wilkinson did just that.

I bring all of what has happened to college football  from the beginning of Buds years at OU to now because all of these changes have significantly changed the football recruiting landscape.

This isn't the our Bud Wilkinson's era of football recruiting anymore.

The breaking of the color barrier.  The beginnings of NCAA scholarship limitations in football.  The advent of the Strength and Conditioning programs.  The breakdown of Oklahoma's production of high school football talent.  The growth of the US population.  The fact that every college football game is on TV.  Conference realignment.  ESPiN and all the TV money now flowing into the game.  All of the above and more has had a huge impact on football recruiting all over the country. 

The advantages Bud and OU had in recruiting back in 1949 has shifted.  The NCAA scholarship limitations along with the nationwide growth in population and other factors has increased the numbers of kids with the talent has leveled the playing field.  Conference realignment has had a huge impact on recruiting.  The SEC with ESPiN's help has been a huge recruiting benefit to the SEC schools.  Same with the B1G and now likely with the ACC.  Meanwhile, the Big 12 has been significantly hurt when it comes to recruiting.  Before, the exodus of NU, Mizzou, CU and A&M the Big XII enjoyed an advantage in recruiting Texas talent, now that advantage has been severely damaged.

In all of the above some schools have gained a recruiting advantage while others have lost an advantage.  The Big XII schools, in my opinion, have been hit pretty hard.  I saw a post today that OU's 2017 class is ranked at #4 and no other conference schools is higher than somewhere in the 40s.

I know there are people who simply don't want to acknowledge the shifts in factors that impact OU's ability to recruit.  Just because we have been one of the blue blood programs, if not the top blue blood program, doesn't mean that we will automatically remain one.  We can, but it is going to be much tougher to do so in the future.

OU simply doesn't have the recruiting advantages it once had in the past.  Sure, we can do it, but it is going to be much harder to do [and be consistently good] as it was in the past.

There are no simple answers.





Last edited on Wed Nov 30th, 2016 01:59 am by Walt

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 Posted: Wed Nov 30th, 2016 02:15 am

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...great post Walt. Good historical context, intelligent analysis, and sharp straightforward comments. Be assured of my esteem, sir. That kind of post is why I hang around here.

OU, OU, OU!!!

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 Posted: Wed Nov 30th, 2016 02:27 am

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Great job, Walt! I, too, always appreciate your historic perspective, and I also enjoy your posts, your job as one of the board administrators, and your continual striving for mutual respect among posters. You have always had my respect. :)

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 Posted: Wed Nov 30th, 2016 02:33 am

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Oklahoma comparisons
99-04 - record: 67-12 conf champs: 3 bowl record: 3-3  NC chances: 3

05-10 - record: 62-19 conf champs: 4 bowl record: 3-3  NC chances: 1

11-16 - record: 59-18* conf champs: 2* bowl record: 2-3*  NC chances: 1*


Assume victory over OSU and over Auburn or Florida in the Sugar Bowl and you'd have
11-16 - record: 61-18 conf champs: 3 bowl record: 3-3  NC chances: 1


One can argue lies, damn lies, and statistics, but what I see is a program that after a half dozen seasons of being out of the national conversation by October still has a possibility of getting into the playoff, albeit needing a good bit of help, at the beginning of December, following a season when they did make the playoff.  I see a program that is more relevant than it's been since G. W. Bush was President.  

In fact,

1950 - Truman (D) - won NC but lost bowl game....
1955 - Ike (R)
1956 - Ike (R)
1974 - Ford (R)
1975 - Ford (R)
1985 - Reagan (R)
2000 - Clinton(D), but Bush (R) was President - Elect

Schnellenberger, Blake, Gomer Jones, and Snorter Luster all coached when only a Democrat was in office, and Gibbs' final two years were as well. 

Since WWII OU has lost to OSU 13 times.  NINE of those times have occurred when a Democrat was in the White House.

The Sooner bowl record is 14-12 under Democrat administrations, but 15-8-1 with the GOP.


Without getting into the details, I find both establishment parties equally objectionable.  But I believe I may have stumbled upon the reason that not one single county in Oklahoma has been carried by a Democrat in the past four elections.  In 1976 Jimmy Carter very nearly won the state, and the Sooners finished in a three-way tie for the Big 8 crown after losing to OSU and Colorado.  The next year was that debacle against Arkansas in the Orange Bowl, and that was followed by Billy Sims fumbling away the national championship in Lincoln.  In 1964 LBJ did carry Oklahoma, and Gomer Jones stumbled to a 6-4-1 record, including the only loss ever to Florida St. in the Gator Bowl.

No matter how detrimental it might be to the nation overall, it seems we need a Republican president in order to facilitate Sooner football success.



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 Posted: Wed Nov 30th, 2016 03:48 am

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tennsooner wrote:
palmettosooner wrote:
Triple Option wrote:
So, let me see if I’ve got this straight:

The defensive coaches stink because they have all these talented 4-star guys and still aren’t good. However, the defensive coaches also stink because they can’t recruit talented guys. :big confused:

Talented guys won’t come to OU because of the coaches (so I guess we don’t know who recruited SS17 to OU, maybe some kind and generous coaches from the SEC who were all full-up on 4-stars).

And oh, by the way, 550 yards a game (3rd) and 45+ points a game (tie for first) just isn’t good enough, so the offensive coaches stink too.

Geez-louise, if some of you guys were Alabama fans, you’d complain that the offense was too boring and how Saban needs to join the 21st century. Or that the cheerleaders weren’t pretty enough.

You tell me...

Bob Stoops era-
1999-2015 we have 10 total All-American selections across the LOS,( OL/DL). Only 1, ( Ikard-C), has been selected in the last 6 seasons, ( not counting 2016). So that's 9 in the first 11 seasons and 1 in the last 6. I'd say that's a major down trend.

We had 5 DL AA's in an 8 year period and 5 OL AA's in a 7 year period during that span prior to 2010. Since then, we have 1 AA lineman TOTAL... in 6 years. On both sides of the LOS. 1.

We have had 7 AA linebackers in the Stoops era. Only 1 in the last 8 seasons ( not counting 2016), ( Striker '15). So that's 6 in the first 11 seasons and 1 in the last 8, possibly 9 seasons.

Here's a list of Linemen All-Americans since 2010 at OU and the current top 3 programs in CF...

OU: 1- OL, 0- DL
Alabama: 7- OL, 1- DL
Ohio St: 3- OL, 5- DL
Clemson: 1- OL, 6- DL

Since Mike Stoops took over:

Defensive AA's ( all positions):

OU: 2
Al: 8
OSU: 8
CU: 9

Recruiting rankings courtesy of "Rivals" ( couldn't find any earlier than 2003):

2003- OU- #4
Al- #52
OSU- #44
CU- #70

2016- OU- #16
Al- #1
OSU- #3
CU- #6

You tell me.

I predict crickets.:lol:

Well, I'm not sure we're even having the same conversation, so I'm not sure what I'm supposed to tell you. :D

It's no secret our dropoff a few years ago was due to a lack of NFL caliber talent, a point I made before last season. Recent NFL drafts had made that painfully obvious. http://www.soonertimesbb.com/forums/view_topic.php?id=23115&forum_id=2

But, I also think we've turned the corner on that. When Bob did some housecleaning a couple of years ago, he brought in better recruiters. That's why you see more highly rated guys among our young players, and especially in the incoming class.

Playing defense is always easier when you have a Tommie Harris or a Gerald McCoy in the middle, but most other college teams don't have a Pro Bowler anchoring their defensive line either. On the other hand, a couple of these young guys have the chance to become studs, so who knows?

Our talent level has been down, but last year and this year we've been better, and we have better talent coming in. We're not back to where we want to be yet, but we're getting there. It just takes time to recover from where we were.

I think the Alabama cheerleaders are plenty pretty.

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 Posted: Wed Nov 30th, 2016 05:43 pm

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Triple Option wrote:
So, let me see if I’ve got this straight:

The defensive coaches stink because they have all these talented 4-star guys and still aren’t good. However, the defensive coaches also stink because they can’t recruit talented guys. :big confused:

Talented guys won’t come to OU because of the coaches (so I guess we don’t who recruited SS17 to OU, maybe some kind and generous coaches from the SEC who were all full-up on 4-stars).

And oh, by the way, 550 yards a game (3rd) and 45+ points a game (tie for first) just isn’t good enough, so the offensive coaches stink too.

Geez-louise, if some of you guys were Alabama fans, you’d complain that the offense was too boring and how Saban needs to join the 21st century. Or that the cheerleaders weren’t pretty enough.




My original point was that we aren't a force any longer on the interior lines or at the Linebacker position, as we once were. This is , unfortunately, a combination of recruiting failure/poor analysis and inferior/ineffective coaching. You are not happy that people are pointing these facts out. I'm sorry, but it's right there for you to easily see.
The fact that we are averaging these gaudy numbers on offense is more a symptom of poor defense in the conference than it is superior offense. Clemson proved that, twice. Houston and Ohio St. pretty much proved that. While I have no complaint about our offensive skill positions, we are still a work in progress on the OL. One of the problems there IS talent, or a lack there of. No doubt these guys are making improvements, but where were they vs Houston and Ohio St.? Still, it's the defense that is our achilles heel.
Scheme/alignment, (on the coaches), is a serious issue that is a repetitive problem. This has been going on since Mike came back. Prevent defense aint workin' in the age of the air raid! Not to mention we are taking supposed 4-5 star LBers and DB's and watching them turn into 2 star guys during games. This either means they were truly not 4-5 star athletes or they aren't prepared properly to take the field in D1 CF. Maybe both...

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 Posted: Wed Nov 30th, 2016 06:47 pm

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palmettosooner wrote:
Triple Option wrote:
So, let me see if I’ve got this straight:

The defensive coaches stink because they have all these talented 4-star guys and still aren’t good. However, the defensive coaches also stink because they can’t recruit talented guys. :big confused:

Talented guys won’t come to OU because of the coaches (so I guess we don’t know who recruited SS17 to OU, maybe some kind and generous coaches from the SEC who were all full-up on 4-stars).

And oh, by the way, 550 yards a game (3rd) and 45+ points a game (tie for first) just isn’t good enough, so the offensive coaches stink too.

Geez-louise, if some of you guys were Alabama fans, you’d complain that the offense was too boring and how Saban needs to join the 21st century. Or that the cheerleaders weren’t pretty enough.

My original point was that we aren't a force any longer on the interior lines or at the Linebacker position, as we once were. This is , unfortunately, a combination of recruiting failure/poor analysis and inferior/ineffective coaching. You are not happy that people are pointing these facts out. I'm sorry, but it's right there for you to easily see.
The fact that we are averaging these gaudy numbers on offense is more a symptom of poor defense in the conference than it is superior offense. Clemson proved that, twice. Houston and Ohio St. pretty much proved that. While I have no complaint about our offensive skill positions, we are still a work in progress on the OL. One of the problems there IS talent, or a lack there of. No doubt these guys are making improvements, but where were they vs Houston and Ohio St.? Still, it's the defense that is our achilles heel.
Scheme/alignment, (on the coaches), is a serious issue that is a repetitive problem. This has been going on since Mike came back. Prevent defense aint workin' in the age of the air raid! Not to mention we are taking supposed 4-5 star LBers and DB's and watching them turn into 2 star guys during games. This either means they were truly not 4-5 star athletes or they aren't prepared properly to take the field in D1 CF. Maybe both...

"You are not happy that people are pointing these facts out." - It's not that, it's that I get tired of hearing people constantly point it out. ;)

Again, I don't disagree that we need to upgrade our talent level. I think everybody on this board would agree on that point. I'm just more optimistic that we are already doing that.

SoonerMike
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 Posted: Wed Nov 30th, 2016 07:23 pm

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Walt wrote:
palmettosooner wrote: Triple Option wrote:
So, let me see if I’ve got this straight:

The defensive coaches stink because they have all these talented 4-star guys and still aren’t good. However, the defensive coaches also stink because they can’t recruit talented guys. :big confused:

Talented guys won’t come to OU because of the coaches (so I guess we don’t who recruited SS17 to OU, maybe some kind and generous coaches from the SEC who were all full-up on 4-stars).

And oh, by the way, 550 yards a game (3rd) and 45+ points a game (tie for first) just isn’t good enough, so the offensive coaches stink too.

Geez-louise, if some of you guys were Alabama fans, you’d complain that the offense was too boring and how Saban needs to join the 21st century. Or that the cheerleaders weren’t pretty enough.




You tell me...

Bob Stoops era-
1999-2015 we have 10 total All-American selections across the LOS , ( OL/DL). Only 1, ( Ikard-C), has been selected in the last 6 seasons, ( not counting 2016). So that's 9 in the first 11 seasons and 1 in the last 6. I'd say that's a major down trend.

We had 5 DL AA's in an 8 year period and 5 OL AA's in a 7 year period during that span prior to 2010. Since then, we have 1 AA lineman TOTAL... in 6 years. On both sides of the LOS. 1.

We have had 7 AA linebackers in the Stoops era. Only 1 in the last 8 seasons ( not counting 2016), ( Striker '15). So that's 6 in the first 11 seasons and 1 in the last 8, possibly 9 seasons.

Here's a list of Linemen All-Americans since 2010 at OU and the current top 3 programs in CF...

OU: 1- OL, 0- DL
Alabama: 7- OL, 1- DL
Ohio St: 3- OL, 5- DL
Clemson: 1- OL, 6- DL

Since Mike Stoops took over:

Defensive AA's ( all positions):

OU: 2
Al: 8
OSU: 8
CU: 9


Recruiting rankings courtesy of "Rivals" ( couldn't find any earlier than 2003):

2003- OU- #4
Al- #52
OSU- #44
CU- #70


2016- OU- #16
Al- #1
OSU- #3
CU- #6


You tell me.

I will give you my thoughts on this issue, but I don't want any blow back from anyone.  The standard answer that many will give is to lay it entirely on the coaches.   In the broad sense, I know great teams are directly related to two things: great coaching and great recruiting.  It takes both. 

Going back to Wilkinson's days OU's historically recruiting base was Oklahoma and Texas.  Bud signed up for the Navy during WWII and coached football under Don Faurot.  At the end of the war he came to OU under Jim Tatum.  Tatum coached at OU for one year and Bud replaced him as OU's head coach at the ripe old age of 31.  Bud and Tatum started out recruiting a lot of those kids who were just returning home from the war.  He had coached many of them and brought them to OU.

Bud's recruiting was roughly half from Oklahoma and the other half from Texas.  I started keeping track of OU's recruiting back in the early 50s.  OU, during Buds years and continuing up through much of Switzer's years remained mostly Oklahoma and Texas. Bud broke the color barrier with Prentice Gautt in 1956.   As we all know, Barry Switzer was a master recruiter and just blew the color barrier away during his years.  Between Bud and Barry they won a ton of conference championships and six national championships based on mostly Oklahoma and Texas talent.  Barry also began to recruit from a broader area getting kids from Arkansas, Missouri, Kansas and some kids from Florida and California.

About the time Barry took over at OU the NCAA [in 1973] started the scholarship limitations at 105 kids, I think.  Bud, sometimes brought in as many as 145 or so.  Bud, took a lot of kids just to keep his competitors from getting them.  In 1992, the NCAA reduced the 105 down to 85 with no more than 25 a year.

Between Barry and Bob some interesting things began to happen in Oklahoma, especially the Oklahoma City Metro area.   Both Bud and Barry recruited heavily in Oklahoma.  By the time Bob was hired in December of 1998 the numbers of Division 1A football prospects had dwindled down.  I think that happened for a couple of reasons.  First, the numbers of prospects from the OKC metro area dropped of dramatically.  Also, the same thing occurred from some of the former OU recruiting hot beds in the rural areas of the state dried up.  No longer did places like Ada, Muskogee, McAlister, Norman, Edmond, Enid, Elk City, Weatherford and on and on produce players like they did, especially in Buds era.

My opinion is that it was "money" that was the culprit.  I know for a fact that is a major reason for the OKC Metro area dropping off.  Also, between Bud and Barry the S&C programs began to proliferate in the college game.

Prior to 1984, the NCAA set limits on the number of times in a season that any team could have their games televised.  In 1984, OU filed a federal lawsuit against the NCAA over who owned the TV rights, the school or the NCAA.  Georgia joined OU in that suit.  OU and Georgia won.  And, now we have round the clock college football games.  This started the money grab to where we are today with ESPiN and all the money funneled into the college game.

Another factor is the growth in the population of the US.  In 1950 the US population was 152 million.  Today it is about 325.  However, the number of Division 1A [now FBS] teams is roughly the same at about 124.  So, we have double the population with most of the population in bigger cities and towns with way more money for high school football facilities and as good of S&C programs as some FBS schools and with some stadiums in the 40,000 plus range.

Another factor is the NFL taking Juniors in their draft.  Bud kept his players until their eligibility ran out.  Same with Barry, for the most part.  That is not the case with today's coaches as they not only lose their seniors, they also lose their best Juniors to the NFL draft.

Also, in the last 12 to 15 years have witnessed the restructuring [conference realignment] of the old traditional football conferences.  And, with that the growth of the money in the games and on and on.

Bud, had an advantage over much of college football when he first arrived at OU.  George Cross was OU's President who hired Bud.  He often said: "I would like to build a University of which the football team could be proud."  Bud Wilkinson did just that.

I bring all of what has happened to college football  from the beginning of Buds years at OU to now because all of these changes have significantly changed the football recruiting landscape.

This isn't the our Bud Wilkinson's era of football recruiting anymore.

The breaking of the color barrier.  The beginnings of NCAA scholarship limitations in football.  The advent of the Strength and Conditioning programs.  The breakdown of Oklahoma's production of high school football talent.  The growth of the US population.  The fact that every college football game is on TV.  Conference realignment.  ESPiN and all the TV money now flowing into the game.  All of the above and more has had a huge impact on football recruiting all over the country. 

The advantages Bud and OU had in recruiting back in 1949 has shifted.  The NCAA scholarship limitations along with the nationwide growth in population and other factors has increased the numbers of kids with the talent has leveled the playing field.  Conference realignment has had a huge impact on recruiting.  The SEC with ESPiN's help has been a huge recruiting benefit to the SEC schools.  Same with the B1G and now likely with the ACC.  Meanwhile, the Big 12 has been significantly hurt when it comes to recruiting.  Before, the exodus of NU, Mizzou, CU and A&M the Big XII enjoyed an advantage in recruiting Texas talent, now that advantage has been severely damaged.

In all of the above some schools have gained a recruiting advantage while others have lost an advantage.  The Big XII schools, in my opinion, have been hit pretty hard.  I saw a post today that OU's 2017 class is ranked at #4 and no other conference schools is higher than somewhere in the 40s.

I know there are people who simply don't want to acknowledge the shifts in factors that impact OU's ability to recruit.  Just because we have been one of the blue blood programs, if not the top blue blood program, doesn't mean that we will automatically remain one.  We can, but it is going to be much tougher to do so in the future.

OU simply doesn't have the recruiting advantages it once had in the past.  Sure, we can do it, but it is going to be much harder to do [and be consistently good] as it was in the past.

There are no simple answers.




I agree with the great post you made.
One additional factor is integration. During Barrys tenure at OU, the SEC and SW conferences started recruiting wholesale instead of a picked few blacks. That meant better teams down South (SEC and Texas) and fewer great black players that went to schools with a history of playing blacks. That made it a little harder to recruit at OU.





danella74
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 Posted: Wed Nov 30th, 2016 07:34 pm

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I'll make it easy fire Mike Stoops and hire Jim Leavitt!!!


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