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Patchwork defense limited Sooners this season
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47Straight
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 Posted: Sun Nov 27th, 2016 05:47 pm

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Patchwork defense limited Sooners this season
By John Shinn Transcript Sports Writer    

The pressure to win games and championships at Oklahoma is like spending a season in a vice grip. The only relief comes from accomplishing the first two goals.

The illustration of the point came during the Sooners’ 56-28 victory over West Virginia last week. A four-touchdown victory over a then top-10 team on the road was not enough. The Mountaineers accumulated 579 yards of total offense. West Virginia running back Justin Crawford rushed for 331 yards.

The Sooners controlled that game because it has one of the best offenses in college football and it generated four turnovers with two coming as West Virginia was on the verge of scoring.

“We’re not a defense that can just overwhelm anybody right now. That’s just not the personnel that we have. We have to come up with big plays, turnovers,” defensive coordinator Mike Stoops said. “… That’s what we are right now. Our kids have really competed and we’ve just got to suck it up.”

The overwhelming thought — at least by those glued to social media — is it’s time for OU coach Bob Stoops make a change at defensive coordinator. Yes, there’s a segment of fans that want Bob Stoops to fire his younger brother.

The numbers say things aren’t working out. Heading into Saturday’s games, the Sooners were No. 8 in the College Football Playoff ranking, but No. 91 in the country in total defense and No. 81 in scoring defense.

There isn't a Big 12 team in the top 36 of either category. It's also important to remember that non-conference schedules factor into this.

The Sooners may very well win their second straight Big 12 Conference title when they face No. 10 Oklahoma State at Owen Field next Saturday. But winning championships requires at least the capability of dominance in all three phases. What OU has done defensively — against one of the toughest schedules in college football — is a massive red flag.

However, the defensive cards dealt to the Sooners don’t make for a can’t-lose hand.

The injuries — especially in the front seven — were harsh. Think back to the season opener against Houston. Defensive ends Charles Walker and Matt Dimon were both starters. They last suited up in early October. Neither is with the team anymore.

Linebacker Tay Evans brought an imposing presence. OU’s lacked a 240-pound thumper in the middle of its defense for years. Multiple concussions forced him to retire before Big 12 Conference play started.

In Evans’ place stepped junior college transfer Emmanuel Beal. He’s talented, but at 215 pounds. He needs that full year in the Sooners’ conditioning program to get up to speed.

Each injury causes a ripple effect to the preseason plan. It doesn’t take long before it turns into a tidal wave.

“We’re just thin. That’s just how it is,” Mike Stoops said.

The secondary issues are easier to pin on the defensive coaching staff. The cornerback spot Jordan Parker holds has been an issue all season. He still makes freshman mistakes, but OU has limited options.

Recruiting and developing players falls on the coaching staff. The hope is the Sooners have gotten a lot of development accomplished this season.

“We’ve got a lot of confidence with the way they are playing and a lot of cohesiveness and trust with the guys with the way they are playing and working at practice together,” Bob Stoops said. “Right now, we’re in a positive position with the way those guys have played and developed. A lot of those young guys have really grown in these last five-six weeks.”

Redshirt freshmen defensive linemen Du’Vonta Lampkin and Neville Gallimore showed their potential once injuries pushed them further up the depth chart. Sophomore safety Will Sunderland made a game-changing interception against Texas. He’s likely to be a starter next season.

Mike Stoops indicated bowl preparation would include seeing which players can move to different positions. Those experiments are tough during regular-season practices.

There’s also the huge recruiting class that will begin arriving on campus in January. It won’t do anything to help this season’s defense, but it will bolster it in future years.

The other question fans have to ask is how much do OU’s defensive issues have to do with play-calling. Statistically, OU’s defense has improved since the meltdown against Texas Tech. But that has more to do with the Sooners slowing their offensive pace. They haven’t run more than 76 plays in their last four games. OU has made a conscious effort to control the clock with its offense — especially in the second half. Because of that, the Sooners have given up fewer points.

A few weeks ago, Mike Stoops was asked if he watched the Iowa-Michigan game. Two Big Ten that used offensive huddles and slugged it out with fullbacks and tight ends as offensive mainstays.

The coach joked it was strange to see a shot of the line of scrimmage and all 22 players were visible.

That doesn’t happen in the Big 12. The game is spread out. The gaps are bigger. Better athletes are needed to close them. The Sooners lost some of their top athletes due the biggest obstacle teams face during a season.

"The group has really hung in there. I’m just proud of ‘em,” Mike Stoops said.

They’re one win away from winning a second straight Big 12 title.

John Shinn

http://www.normantranscript.com/sports/all_ou_sports/patchwork-defense-limited-sooners-this-season/article_07b42ef1-9ad6-5437-b4d0-2cad0160cc0a.html

jdurrett
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 Posted: Sun Nov 27th, 2016 06:22 pm

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Much more than any other conference, the Big XII has spread offenses and its variations with years of experience in running those offenses. The only fault I find with OU is that the coaches haver failed to recruit the quality of linemen that limit the opposing team's run game or harass their passer.

Last edited on Sun Nov 27th, 2016 06:22 pm by jdurrett

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 Posted: Sun Nov 27th, 2016 06:38 pm

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My biggest problem with all of this finger pointing everywhere but at Mike Stoops is the question . If his last name wasn't Stoops would he still have a job? I feel the answer is no and that doesn't speak well for Bob.

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 Posted: Sun Nov 27th, 2016 09:36 pm

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What does injuries to the front seven have to do with the poor tackling by the secondary?

What does injuries to the front seven have to do with the secondary getting absolutely smoked due to being confused and not because the opposing QB has ample time to throw?

Sometimes injuries are in fact a reason such as if a QB has a broken hand on his throwing arm, that will be the reason he can't throw the football well.

Unfortunately, the injuries this season are being as an excuse for poor defensive play. And allowing a 300 yard rusher and a 700 yard passer in the same season means there are far bigger problems than just injuries.

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 Posted: Mon Nov 28th, 2016 12:50 am

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ClintA.Adams wrote:
What does injuries to the front seven have to do with the poor tackling by the secondary?

What does injuries to the front seven have to do with the secondary getting absolutely smoked due to being confused and not because the opposing QB has ample time to throw?

Sometimes injuries are in fact a reason such as if a QB has a broken hand on his throwing arm, that will be the reason he can't throw the football well.

Unfortunately, the injuries this season are being as an excuse for poor defensive play. And allowing a 300 yard rusher and a 700 yard passer in the same season means there are far bigger problems than just injuries.



Those are all valid points , Clint.

The CFP game with Clemson last New Year's Eve made it clearly evident we lacked the "physical" toughness & ability and the acumen or scheme to beat them. The 2nd half was painful to watch.

I wonder about, if not downright question the physical preparation at Oklahoma (which leads to the mental toughness needed)to compete at the highest levels of college football in the 21st century. And while I'm loathe to ever agree with you about Bob Stoops, bottom line is that's his responsibility. I'm also reluctant to ever question strength coach Smitty's methods, but it did seem like we suffered more injuries than normal this season. Clearly remember when Bob arrived in 1999 how much physical conditioning and tough full contact practices resulted in the level of success we've all come to expect.

But, times have changed. The national perception of Big 12 football is NO DEFENSE! First team to 70 wins! Watching the Iron Bowl and the Ohio St/Michigan games this weekend it was obvious that defense IS still played in the college football landscape, just not in OUr league. The old cliché still applies,...
OFFENSE WINS GAMES. DEFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS!

OU, OU, OU!!!

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 Posted: Mon Nov 28th, 2016 01:51 am

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Previous recruiting classes have come back to bit us quite hard. When you don't have the talent, you have to try to cover it up with scheme. I'm not a fan of the 3-3-5 defense. However, other teams with the proper talent have beaten spread offenses with traditional schemes. I watched four very talented defenses play this weekend, and the comparison to OU is night and day.

I've commented before about the perception around the country of Mike and his style of coaching. A lot of the top defensive talent doesn't want to come to OU due his reputation and the scheme he's running.

Mike's not the only problem though. I understand the injuries, but we also have missed out on some of the top defensive recruits year after year. I also understand it takes experience to play LB and secondary at a very high level consistently.

But when you are this far into the season and your secondary is still lost, your LBs consistently miss run fits by two gaps, something else is wrong. By this point in the season, there shouldn't be confusion and poor communication in the secondary, LBs shouldn't be influenced out of position by motion, we shouldn't have LBs who not only can't seal the edge, but abandon it and put themselves completely out of the play.

Thibs gets a pass IMO because this is his first real full year. Cooks.....also not sure how much of this is him and when I try to get answers I get evasive responses. Kish, I'm sorry, your time to prove yourself has come and gone. But as long as Mike is here, so Kish will remain.

I'm not an defensive coach, I have much more of an offensive mind and was taught by some of the best in the business. I have a lot of friends that are coaches at one level or another. My knowledge of the offense helps me see the deficiencies in our defense.

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 Posted: Mon Nov 28th, 2016 02:21 am

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SoonerRick46 wrote:
Previous recruiting classes have come back to bit us quite hard. When you don't have the talent, you have to try to cover it up with scheme. I'm not a fan of the 3-3-5 defense. However, other teams with the proper talent have beaten spread offenses with traditional schemes. I watched four very talented defenses play this weekend, and the comparison to OU is night and day.

I've commented before about the perception around the country of Mike and his style of coaching. A lot of the top defensive talent doesn't want to come to OU due his reputation and the scheme he's running.

Mike's not the only problem though. I understand the injuries, but we also have missed out on some of the top defensive recruits year after year. I also understand it takes experience to play LB and secondary at a very high level consistently.

But when you are this far into the season and your secondary is still lost, your LBs consistently miss run fits by two gaps, something else is wrong. By this point in the season, there shouldn't be confusion and poor communication in the secondary, LBs shouldn't be influenced out of position by motion, we shouldn't have LBs who not only can't seal the edge, but abandon it and put themselves completely out of the play.

Thibs gets a pass IMO because this is his first real full year. Cooks.....also not sure how much of this is him and when I try to get answers I get evasive responses. Kish, I'm sorry, your time to prove yourself has come and gone. But as long as Mike is here, so Kish will remain.

I'm not an defensive coach, I have much more of an offensive mind and was taught by some of the best in the business. I have a lot of friends that are coaches at one level or another. My knowledge of the offense helps me see the deficiencies in our defense.


..."deficiencies in OUr defense is the crux of the matter.
The national perception of defensive play in the Big 12 is dead solid correct. Patterson's defensive rep at TCU took a hit this year. Probably K-ST & West Va were the best examples of "adequate" defense, but still left a lot to be desired at a national level.

I'd love to see a return to the OKLAHOMA 5-2 defense. A noseguard, two tackles and two DE's. Two Linebackers, Two corners, and two safeties, but I just don't think OU has the athletic talent to run that scheme. Not sure Mike has the know-how to coach it either.

Appreciate the intelligent discussion, SoonerRick46. Refreshing to objectively discuss Sooner football. My esteem, sir!

OU, OU, OU!!!

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 Posted: Mon Nov 28th, 2016 02:33 am

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My First post here and I think I'm starting trouble .. Aren't the 3-4 and 5-2 versions of the same thing ?? Both have a NT and 2 DT and then 2 DE's however in the 3-4 they are considered LB's?? Essentially the same thing ?? from Wikipedia :
"The 5–2 (or 5–4, or 3–4, or Okie, or 50 defense) is a popular defense at all levels of coaching, in part because it has simple reads, is easy to coach, and allows coaches to concentrate on technique.[15] By the 1990s, however, coaches were having issues with the demands of finding players who could handle the nose guard and defensive tackle positions of this defense. These require "two gap" players of exceptional size and power.[16] Further, the "read then react" nature of the defense made it doubly difficult for teams of smaller size.[17] As a consequence, teams began switching back to more modern four man line defenses, of the kind pioneered by the Miami Hurricanes of college football and the Jimmy Johnson led Dallas Cowboys.[18] "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5%E2%80%932_defense


I think to paraphrase Barry ... the problem here is not the alignment .. it's the alignees

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 Posted: Mon Nov 28th, 2016 02:38 am

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...YEP! Think that's exactly what we've said.

IT AIN'T THE X'S AND O'S,...IT'S THE JIMMY'S AND JOES!

-BARRY SWITZER

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 Posted: Mon Nov 28th, 2016 02:47 am

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What I am curious about is whether Samaje Perine and Joe Mixon are wearing blue jerseys in practice. If they are, that's a big mistake imo.

They are both star running backs and what better personnel to try to tackle than them? If they are hands off, Oklahoma's in-game tackling will suffer in turn.

It's strange, because Oklahoma started practicing rugby style tackling in spring of 2015 and they actually tackled quite well last season, but this season, they have been extremely poor at it.

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 Posted: Mon Nov 28th, 2016 02:50 am

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OU Chinaman wrote:
ClintA.Adams wrote:
What does injuries to the front seven have to do with the poor tackling by the secondary?

What does injuries to the front seven have to do with the secondary getting absolutely smoked due to being confused and not because the opposing QB has ample time to throw?

Sometimes injuries are in fact a reason such as if a QB has a broken hand on his throwing arm, that will be the reason he can't throw the football well.

Unfortunately, the injuries this season are being as an excuse for poor defensive play. And allowing a 300 yard rusher and a 700 yard passer in the same season means there are far bigger problems than just injuries.



Those are all valid points , Clint.

The CFP game with Clemson last New Year's Eve made it clearly evident we lacked the "physical" toughness & ability and the acumen or scheme to beat them. The 2nd half was painful to watch.

I wonder about, if not downright question the physical preparation at Oklahoma (which leads to the mental toughness needed)to compete at the highest levels of college football in the 21st century. And while I'm loathe to ever agree with you about Bob Stoops, bottom line is that's his responsibility. I'm also reluctant to ever question strength coach Smitty's methods, but it did seem like we suffered more injuries than normal this season. Clearly remember when Bob arrived in 1999 how much physical conditioning and tough full contact practices resulted in the level of success we've all come to expect.

But, times have changed. The national perception of Big 12 football is NO DEFENSE! First team to 70 wins! Watching the Iron Bowl and the Ohio St/Michigan games this weekend it was obvious that defense IS still played in the college football landscape, just not in OUr league. The old cliché still applies,...
OFFENSE WINS GAMES. DEFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS!

OU, OU, OU!!!



What baffles me is in both the game against Clemson and the bowl game against ATM back in the 2011 season bowl game, Oklahoma was right there with both teams at half-time. Then for whatever reason, Oklahoma absolutely cratered in the 2nd half right out of the gate on both sides of the ball.

It seems like Oklahoma has the talent to compete based on the first half performances, but when the opposing coaching staff makes adjustments at half-time, Oklahoma never makes adjustments to their adjustments. They just keep doing what "was" working in the first half.

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 Posted: Mon Nov 28th, 2016 02:53 am

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...IF YOU SAW OKLAHOMA'S SPRING PROM,...ER, I MEAN GAME, WHERE THEY DIDN'T EVEN FINISH PLAYS. WHERE IT LOOKED LIKE A FLAG FOOTBALL GAME, IT'S NOT HARD TO UNDERSTAND.

YOU CAN'T REALISTICALLY EXPECT PLAYERS TO BE AGGRESSIVE TACKLERS IN GAMES WHEN THEY DON'T DO IT IN PRACTICE.

OU, OU, OU!!!

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 Posted: Mon Nov 28th, 2016 03:26 am

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ClintA.Adams wrote:

What baffles me is in both the game against Clemson and the bowl game against ATM back in the 2011 season bowl game, Oklahoma was right there with both teams at half-time. Then for whatever reason, Oklahoma absolutely cratered in the 2nd half right out of the gate on both sides of the ball.


That happens in an awful lot of games. PSU & MSU, Wiscy & Minnesota, the Apple Cup, the Iron Bowl, and TCU/Texas were all like that, where the better team ran away with it in the second half.
There's two ways to look at it. On the one hand, if the other guys kill you after halftime it means they either figured out how to use their advantage or your weakness, and sometimes that's talent. That's no good. But on the other hand, if they beat your brains out in the first half it generally means that your guys didn't show up OR that the other team beat you both on talent and on scheme. Of course, sometimes you're just lucky with turnovers or something. I'm far more bothered by getting down by three or four touchdowns in the first half than by things getting out of hand after the break.

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 Posted: Mon Nov 28th, 2016 03:29 am

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I think they are doing it to minimize injuries .. However .. They've had injuries anyway .. I think it's better to tackle in practice and have ALL your players prepared and just realize injuries will happen in football no matter what you do .

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 Posted: Mon Nov 28th, 2016 11:39 am

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captnop wrote:
I think they are doing it to minimize injuries .. However .. They've had injuries anyway .. I think it's better to tackle in practice and have ALL your players prepared and just realize injuries will happen in football no matter what you do .


Exactly.

And I Think there is far greater risk as a team to tackle poorly in live games by being timid in practice than there is a player getting injured in practice by not playing timid.

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 Posted: Mon Nov 28th, 2016 12:43 pm

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SoonerRick46 wrote: Previous recruiting classes have come back to bit us quite hard. When you don't have the talent, you have to try to cover it up with scheme. I'm not a fan of the 3-3-5 defense. However, other teams with the proper talent have beaten spread offenses with traditional schemes. I watched four very talented defenses play this weekend, and the comparison to OU is night and day.

I've commented before about the perception around the country of Mike and his style of coaching. A lot of the top defensive talent doesn't want to come to OU due his reputation and the scheme he's running.

Mike's not the only problem though. I understand the injuries, but we also have missed out on some of the top defensive recruits year after year. I also understand it takes experience to play LB and secondary at a very high level consistently.

But when you are this far into the season and your secondary is still lost, your LBs consistently miss run fits by two gaps, something else is wrong. By this point in the season, there shouldn't be confusion and poor communication in the secondary, LBs shouldn't be influenced out of position by motion, we shouldn't have LBs who not only can't seal the edge, but abandon it and put themselves completely out of the play.

Thibs gets a pass IMO because this is his first real full year. Cooks.....also not sure how much of this is him and when I try to get answers I get evasive responses. Kish, I'm sorry, your time to prove yourself has come and gone. But as long as Mike is here, so Kish will remain.

I'm not an defensive coach, I have much more of an offensive mind and was taught by some of the best in the business. I have a lot of friends that are coaches at one level or another. My knowledge of the offense helps me see the deficiencies in our defense.

Rick, thanks for using some logic and reason on this issue.  I do think that much of our defensive problems this year are due to a combination of a lack of talent and injuries at some spots.  Especially on the DL and linebacker spots.  And, to some extent at CB.  The problems with injuries at the CB slots are that we simply haven't been able to solidify the spot opposite Thomas due to injuries.  It is hard to develop players when you are slim on experience.  Blaming the coaches for not recruiting the talent is one thing, but not on the impact of the injuries.

Football is the consummate team sport.  A good defense of these spread offense requires a front seven that can get some pressure on the QB.  This year's front seven has had no consistency in players due to injuries.  Three of our top four [Dimon, Walker and Romar] have all missed significant playing time due to injuries.  We lost LBer Tay Evans early on as well.  So, we have had to patch up the front four all season due to injuries.

We can't just sit back and suggest that great play from the front seven is important to the defense and then just casually dismiss injuries to the front seven as not having any impact on the defense.  That doesn't make sense to me.




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 Posted: Mon Nov 28th, 2016 01:04 pm

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OU Chinaman wrote:
...YEP! Think that's exactly what we've said.

IT AIN'T THE X'S AND O'S,...IT'S THE JIMMY'S AND JOES!

-BARRY SWITZER


While there is some truth to that all you have to do is look at what Stoops did his first and second year here with many of the same Jimmy and Joe's that Blake had to know that isn't entirely accurate. If you don't think coaching is a huge part of a teams failure or success you never had a good coach.

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 Posted: Mon Nov 28th, 2016 01:22 pm

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Nine 4 star defensive backs are on the roster. It's a mathematical impossibility for an entire unit roster to bust. It's coaching or an outright refusal by the players to be coached because they don't like their coach, which is still a coaching issue.

There are far less talented defenses (even when factoring in the injuries for Oklahoma) out there playing much better fundamental defense than Oklahoma is.

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 Posted: Mon Nov 28th, 2016 01:29 pm

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tennsooner wrote:
OU Chinaman wrote:
...YEP! Think that's exactly what we've said.

IT AIN'T THE X'S AND O'S,...IT'S THE JIMMY'S AND JOES!

-BARRY SWITZER


While there is some truth to that all you have to do is look at what Stoops did his first and second year here with many of the same Jimmy and Joe's that Blake had to know that isn't entirely accurate. If you don't think coaching is a huge part of a teams failure or success you never had a good coach.



Agreed. And another example is Texas doesn't have a Jimmy/Joe issue, they have a coaching issue. They had a 2000 yard rusher, a bright young freshman QB that passed for more yards than Colt McCoy did as a freshman and a defense that is far more talented than the one that is giving up 31.5 points per game.

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 Posted: Mon Nov 28th, 2016 04:35 pm

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SoonerRick46 wrote:
Previous recruiting classes have come back to bit us quite hard. When you don't have the talent, you have to try to cover it up with scheme. I'm not a fan of the 3-3-5 defense. However, other teams with the proper talent have beaten spread offenses with traditional schemes. I watched four very talented defenses play this weekend, and the comparison to OU is night and day.

I've commented before about the perception around the country of Mike and his style of coaching. A lot of the top defensive talent doesn't want to come to OU due his reputation and the scheme he's running.

Mike's not the only problem though. I understand the injuries, but we also have missed out on some of the top defensive recruits year after year. I also understand it takes experience to play LB and secondary at a very high level consistently.

But when you are this far into the season and your secondary is still lost, your LBs consistently miss run fits by two gaps, something else is wrong. By this point in the season, there shouldn't be confusion and poor communication in the secondary, LBs shouldn't be influenced out of position by motion, we shouldn't have LBs who not only can't seal the edge, but abandon it and put themselves completely out of the play.

Thibs gets a pass IMO because this is his first real full year. Cooks.....also not sure how much of this is him and when I try to get answers I get evasive responses. Kish, I'm sorry, your time to prove yourself has come and gone. But as long as Mike is here, so Kish will remain.

I'm not an defensive coach, I have much more of an offensive mind and was taught by some of the best in the business. I have a lot of friends that are coaches at one level or another. My knowledge of the offense helps me see the deficiencies in our defense.



I agree. I think that the defensive, ( and at times offensive line issues), are from these primary causes...

1. Poor coaching
2. Poor recruit analysis, ( particularly on the LOS)
3. Complete lack of aggressiveness and team play on defense
4. Ineffective weight training, etc.

We got embarrassed twice by Clemson because of all 4 of those issues. They owned us up front on both sides of the ball. They owned us in the press box and on the sidelines and in the headphones. Ohio State did too and will again if the staff on defense comes back next year. It will happen.

The first thing to fixing the image problem at OU is firing Mike and his staff. There is no way we will win in the CF playoffs with this bunch.
With a new staff you could conceivably get the 4-5 star lineman regularly that we need to compete again for the NC. A new linebacker coach could take these very good freshman guys we just got and make them into stars.
I'm afraid, though, that this is just a dream...

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 Posted: Mon Nov 28th, 2016 04:52 pm

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palmettosooner wrote:
SoonerRick46 wrote:
Previous recruiting classes have come back to bit us quite hard. When you don't have the talent, you have to try to cover it up with scheme. I'm not a fan of the 3-3-5 defense. However, other teams with the proper talent have beaten spread offenses with traditional schemes. I watched four very talented defenses play this weekend, and the comparison to OU is night and day.

I've commented before about the perception around the country of Mike and his style of coaching. A lot of the top defensive talent doesn't want to come to OU due his reputation and the scheme he's running.

Mike's not the only problem though. I understand the injuries, but we also have missed out on some of the top defensive recruits year after year. I also understand it takes experience to play LB and secondary at a very high level consistently.

But when you are this far into the season and your secondary is still lost, your LBs consistently miss run fits by two gaps, something else is wrong. By this point in the season, there shouldn't be confusion and poor communication in the secondary, LBs shouldn't be influenced out of position by motion, we shouldn't have LBs who not only can't seal the edge, but abandon it and put themselves completely out of the play.

Thibs gets a pass IMO because this is his first real full year. Cooks.....also not sure how much of this is him and when I try to get answers I get evasive responses. Kish, I'm sorry, your time to prove yourself has come and gone. But as long as Mike is here, so Kish will remain.

I'm not an defensive coach, I have much more of an offensive mind and was taught by some of the best in the business. I have a lot of friends that are coaches at one level or another. My knowledge of the offense helps me see the deficiencies in our defense.



I agree. I think that the defensive, ( and at times offensive line issues), are from these primary causes...

1. Poor coaching
2. Poor recruit analysis, ( particularly on the LOS)
3. Complete lack of aggressiveness and team play on defense
4. Ineffective weight training, etc.

We got embarrassed twice by Clemson because of all 4 of those issues. They owned us up front on both sides of the ball. They owned us in the press box and on the sidelines and in the headphones. Ohio State did too and will again if the staff on defense comes back next year. It will happen.

The first thing to fixing the image problem at OU is firing Mike and his staff. There is no way we will win in the CF playoffs with this bunch.
With a new staff you could conceivably get the 4-5 star lineman regularly that we need to compete again for the NC. A new linebacker coach could take these very good freshman guys we just got and make them into stars.
I'm afraid, though, that this is just a dream...



Mike is obvious, but are you really sold on Riley? His offense was a joke against Clemson, Houston and Ohio St. and it goes beyond offensive line issues. I'm overly tired of the Mike Leach tree offenses. It doesn't impress me when Riley's offense tees off in Big 12 play when it doesn't get the job done in non-conference play.

Bob was on the right track a few years ago trying to focus more on running the ball, but made a few huge mistakes. Having Heupel manage the offense, having Bell/mostly Knight (who couldn't and can't pass to save his life in high school, OU and now ATM) trying to run that offense and giving up so quickly and going back to the spread.

He needed to go all in and bring in a non-Mike Leach tree coordinator and commit to the run and redefine the conference once again and force conference teams to go away from the all out spread. I know Texas high school football is impacting some of this personnel wise, but you at least have to try. Otherwise, the same bowl results will keep occurring.

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 Posted: Mon Nov 28th, 2016 07:32 pm

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So, let me see if I’ve got this straight:

The defensive coaches stink because they have all these talented 4-star guys and still aren’t good. However, the defensive coaches also stink because they can’t recruit talented guys. :big confused:

Talented guys won’t come to OU because of the coaches (so I guess we don’t who recruited SS17 to OU, maybe some kind and generous coaches from the SEC who were all full-up on 4-stars).

And oh, by the way, 550 yards a game (3rd) and 45+ points a game (tie for first) just isn’t good enough, so the offensive coaches stink too.

Geez-louise, if some of you guys were Alabama fans, you’d complain that the offense was too boring and how Saban needs to join the 21st century. Or that the cheerleaders weren’t pretty enough.

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 Posted: Mon Nov 28th, 2016 08:03 pm

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For me really the jury is out a little. Last year OU had the best Defense in the big 12 statistically ( I think ??) This year we had alot of injuries and can't tackle. My 2 concerns are

1) we have no DL NT types in the recruiting class yet ( i know we have till Feb)

2) is this year or last year an aberration.. we will know next year


If OU is back to having a decent D like 2015 then I think we are ok .. If it's repeat of this year .. inability to tackle, busted coverages all over .. etc etc .. then I think it's time for Mike and Kish to go at the least ... maybe some others

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 Posted: Mon Nov 28th, 2016 08:24 pm

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OU's defense should be improved next year, but when giving up 30 points per game, it really has nowhere to go but up.

There are problems present that go way beyond simple injuries. I see a defense that plays like they don't like or respect their coaches and that's a huge concern.

As far as Mike Stoops, ultimately, it was time for him to go when Bob Stoops moved him up to the press box, which had absolutely nothing to do with "seeing the field better". Mike Stoops has been on the field and up in the booth during his tenure at KSU and Oklahoma as defensive coordinator and that reason doesn't fly.

If there is that much of a disconnect between the defensive players and their defensive coordinator, there is only one true option. I think Mike is a damn good defensive coordinator, but for a different era of college football and a different era of college football players.

Williams, Strait, Everage, Woolfolk, Bassey, Thatcher, Thompson, Shelby, Nicholson, Perkins, Stephens, etc. didn't have a problem with Mike Stoops in your face style, but that was a different era with a different breed of players. Today's players have to be managed differently and communicated with differently and Mike Stoops doesn't relate and to a degree, Bob Stoops as well given the lack of effort I see by the team from time to time.

And even in the Texas games, I haven't seen the same level of passion of Oklahoma teams in that game as Oklahoma started recruiting more nationally and getting less Oklahoma and Texas players that really know what the rivalry is all about.

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 Posted: Mon Nov 28th, 2016 08:29 pm

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Triple Option wrote: So, let me see if I’ve got this straight:

The defensive coaches stink because they have all these talented 4-star guys and still aren’t good. However, the defensive coaches also stink because they can’t recruit talented guys. :big confused:

Talented guys won’t come to OU because of the coaches (so I guess we don’t who recruited SS17 to OU, maybe some kind and generous coaches from the SEC who were all full-up on 4-stars).

And oh, by the way, 550 yards a game (3rd) and 45+ points a game (tie for first) just isn’t good enough, so the offensive coaches stink too.

Geez-louise, if some of you guys were Alabama fans, you’d complain that the offense was too boring and how Saban needs to join the 21st century. Or that the cheerleaders weren’t pretty enough.

TO, I wrote the same thoughts, but just didn't have the heart to click on the send button.  It is just to confusing for a simpleton like me to keep track of all the things wrong and so darn unacceptable with OU coaches. :cool:

Here is another one for you.  According to some we need a great pass rush from our front seven.  But, according to the same folks injuries and losses off of the starting front seven has not a thing to do with their play.  :cool:

Now, all of a sudden Riley's offense is trash.  :cool: 

It is really hard to keep up with all the double takes and switch backs.  One day Mike is just great.  The next day he is trash.  Riley is good and then his offense needs to be trashed ... makes your head spin. :big confused: 


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 Posted: Mon Nov 28th, 2016 08:34 pm

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Walt wrote:
Triple Option wrote: So, let me see if I’ve got this straight:

The defensive coaches stink because they have all these talented 4-star guys and still aren’t good. However, the defensive coaches also stink because they can’t recruit talented guys. :big confused:

Talented guys won’t come to OU because of the coaches (so I guess we don’t who recruited SS17 to OU, maybe some kind and generous coaches from the SEC who were all full-up on 4-stars).

And oh, by the way, 550 yards a game (3rd) and 45+ points a game (tie for first) just isn’t good enough, so the offensive coaches stink too.

Geez-louise, if some of you guys were Alabama fans, you’d complain that the offense was too boring and how Saban needs to join the 21st century. Or that the cheerleaders weren’t pretty enough.

TO, I wrote the same thoughts, but just didn't have the heart to click on the send button.  It is just to confusing for a simpleton like me to keep track of all the things wrong and so darn unacceptable with OU coaches. :cool:

Here is another one for you.  According to some we need a great pass rush from our front seven.  But, according to the same folks injuries and losses off of the starting front seven has not a thing to do with their play.  :cool:

Now, all of a sudden Riley's offense is trash.  :cool: 

It is really hard to keep up with all the double takes and switch backs.  One day Mike is just great.  The next day he is trash.  Riley is good and then his offense needs to be trashed ... makes your head spin. :big confused: 





Let me help you out wally2. :cool:

Yes, the Sooner defensive front has had injury issues. What does that have to do with the Sooner secondary not knowing how to tackle? ;)

As far as Riley, his offense isn't trash against Big 12 teams, just non-conference teams. ;)

If you need any more guidance, just let me know!

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 Posted: Mon Nov 28th, 2016 09:45 pm

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If you've got guys who don't know where they are supposed to be then you work on understanding the scheme.

If you've got guys who don't tackle well you do the drills to improve that.

If you have both problems you run out of daylight to address everything properly.

This is our secondary players that we have on the roster:
So. P.J. Mbanasor
Fr. Parrish Cobb
Fr. Antoine Stephens
Sr. Stanvon Taylor
Jr. Jordan Thomas
Fr. Jordan Parker
Jr. Steven Parker
Jr. Will Johnson
Sr. Ahmad Thomas
Fr. Parnell Motley
So. Will Sunderland
Sr. Dakota Austin
Fr. Chanse Sylvie
So. Prentice McKinney
So. Ronnie LaRue
Jr. Tylon Lynch
Jr. Jesse Walker
Fr. Gabriel Campbell
Fr. Kenneth Mann
Fr. Malik Bradshaw
Jr. D.J. Ward

That's three seniors, none of whom anyone will rave about, six juniors, two of whom are names I don't recognize, four sophomores, one of whom appears to be a regular contributor currently, and eight freshmen, a couple of whom we are seeing on the field.

I agree with captnop.  We should expect to see a much improved defense next year, and if that is not the case then there's nowhere else to look besides at the defensive coaching staff. 

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 Posted: Mon Nov 28th, 2016 09:53 pm

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Triple Option wrote:
So, let me see if I’ve got this straight:

The defensive coaches stink because they have all these talented 4-star guys and still aren’t good. However, the defensive coaches also stink because they can’t recruit talented guys. :big confused:

Talented guys won’t come to OU because of the coaches (so I guess we don’t who recruited SS17 to OU, maybe some kind and generous coaches from the SEC who were all full-up on 4-stars).

And oh, by the way, 550 yards a game (3rd) and 45+ points a game (tie for first) just isn’t good enough, so the offensive coaches stink too.

Geez-louise, if some of you guys were Alabama fans, you’d complain that the offense was too boring and how Saban needs to join the 21st century. Or that the cheerleaders weren’t pretty enough.


Let me see if I can clear up what was contained in my post anyway.

Yes, we have recuited some 4 and 5 star players in the secondary. People like Cobb has been injured and out for the season. Jordan Thomas played at a very high level last year, what has happened to him this year I'm not sure. Stephen Parker has played very well for the most part other than we can see why he wasn't a WR (dropped INTs) and doesn't tackle particularly well. And we have to remember, that recruiting rankings don't always translate to the field. What I was talking about, is even with lower recruited backups playing in the secondary, at this point in the season, how can they possibly be lost or unable to communicate with each other???? That has to be coaching or a refusal to buy into the scheme that they are playing.

As further evidence, we've lost some defensive coaches (Venables and forgive me for going blank the last D Line coach we had for one season) because they so disagreed with the defensive scheme that Mike insists on running.

As far as LBs go, again, yes we have injuries. However the same thing applies as to the secondary. How can these guys this far into the season be so lost and can't find the run fits? Also, under this scheme, these LBs have to be bigger and yet fast and quick enough to cover in short zones. Apparantly, and as the original article suggests, we haven't been able to recruit them or we're not playing them? Kelly fits the fast and quick criterea and makes excellent reads. Why isn't he playing more? Same is true of Doucet, who also needs to add some weight, but has played fairley well when he has been in. Where has he been the last two games?

When I refered to not being able to recruit the top defenders, I was talking about D Line recruits. Gallimore and Overton were not 5 star recruits. Lampkin is, and played very well the few times he's been in. He and Gallimore have been disruptive and are changing the LOS with their power and speed. Gallimore has had some time, but not as much as he should IMO. Where was Lampkin last week?

I've talked to a lot of coaches over the past few weeks and I get the same response every time. Most of the top D Linemen don't want to come to OU. One, it's a scheme that doesn't do a good job of showcasing them for the NFL scouts. Secondly, the word is out on how Mike coaches and a lot of these top D Linemen don't want to play for someone who coaches like that.

Bottom line, every one of those issues falls on coaching. I can't come up with another resaonable explanation for it. If anyone has the answer, please enlighten me.

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 Posted: Mon Nov 28th, 2016 10:49 pm

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Diron Reynolds. Hard to remember such a brief career.

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 Posted: Mon Nov 28th, 2016 10:55 pm

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"When I refered to not being able to recruit the top defenders, I was talking about D Line recruits. Gallimore and Overton were not 5 star recruits".

But they were 4 stars. 5 star defensive tackles don't get handed out very often. I think I read about 5 or 6 per year on the average. I think Lampkin was a 4 star also. (I tried to look up a link for proof of my post, but got tired) I did confirm Gallimore and Overton were 4 stars according too Rivals.


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